For the record, I would have no problem voting for a presidential candidate of that faith. Keith Ellison of Minnesota has done some very impressive things in his brief time, and might one day make a good choice for the Democratic nomination.
But, as many others have noted, we now face a problem of fibbing, not faith.
Recent statements by Obama's Kenyan half-brother Malik have elevated this controversy from the realm of rumor to...well, to something more than rumor. Oddly (or perhaps not so oddly), the story broke in the Israeli media:
As the Jerusalem Post reports, "Barack Obama's half brother Malik said Thursday that if elected his brother will be a good president for the Jewish people, despite his Muslim background.Let me repeat a few previously-stated views. I think that most politicians are less religious than they pretend, and I suspect that Barack Obama falls into this category. However, the public likes a candidate to display a certain degree of piety. Thus, Obama chose a church that would help his ambitions. (He was thinking locally then, not nationally).
Still -- did he ever self-identify as a Muslim when young? He was registered as a Muslim while attending a public school in Indonesia. In his book Dreams From My Father he describes attending Koran class, which was not compulsory. (Indonesia has a mixed population.) Reports conflict as to whether or not he took a serious attitude toward his youthful instructions in the faith.
Does this religious conundrum impact the controversy over Barack Obama's birth certificate?
Quite a few people (I am not among them) doubt the authenticity of the recently-released birth document. Most of these people incorrectly think that Obama was born outside the United States and thus has no right to run for president. As a previous post has demonstrated, Obama would qualify to run for the presidency even if he had been born in his father's homeland.
And yet...
And yet the campaign did show a surprising reticence to divulge the birth certificate. When one finally appeared, it was an official computerized abstract issued in 2007, not a photocopy of the original 1961 document. The 2007 stamp, though visible, is on the reverse. The proportional font testifies to the use of a computer, and thus, to a modern origin. An actual certificate produced during that period would display typewritten or handwritten entries on a pre-printed form.
So we are dealing with an abstract, not a fake. Many states and provinces issue these abstracts, which suffice for most legal purposes. Unfortunately, they often display less information.
Why haven't we seen the original?
The abstract does not mention religion. In all likelihood, a 1961 Hawaii birth certificate would have had a space for "religion." (Other states required this information.) I think it very possible that Barack Obama's religion would have been marked as "Muslim," since that faith is patrilineal and his mother was an agnostic or atheist.
Obama's grandfather in Kenya was a noted convert to Islam. As mentioned previously, Barack Obama Sr. was irreligious. In the early 1960s, however, people still tended to identify themselves by the faith in which they were raised, even if they no longer practiced it. For example, my mother called herself a Catholic when filling out forms, even though she wouldn't enter a church at anything less than gunpoint.
In 1961, when the birth certificate was being filled out, the elder Obama probably would have answered "Muslim" when asked to state his religion.
Again, I see nothing wrong in this heritage. Obama is at fault only if he has misrepresented his background for political expedience.
Notice how the Obots no longer slam Hillary for the "as far as I know" remark? Truth is, we don't know.
19 comments:
As I asked below: How would the Obama's in Kenya know anything about how Barack was raised as he wasn't raised in Kenya? He was born in Hawaii and attended some school in Indonesia. His Kenyan father separated from Barack's mother when Barack was 2 years old.
I presume the mother did keep in contact with the father from time to time.
That said, I strongly doubt that Barack Obama the younger was raised in ANY religion as a boy. Ann Dunham was agnostic.
So if Barack Obama was ever "Muslim," it would be a youthful flirtation during the Indonesian period. The question is whether or not he ever took his religious instruction seriously. I can't answer that one for sure, although I've already stated my suspicion that he was not and is not a person of great faith.
So Joe then what "fibbing" is involved?
"But, as many others have noted, we now face a problem of fibbing, not faith." We do?
"He was registered as a Muslim while attending a public school in Indonesia."
Tell me how do we know this?
"In his book Dreams From My Father he describes attending Koran class, which was not compulsory. (Indonesia has a mixed population.)"
Oh so he wasn't fibbing about that?
"Reports conflict as to whether or not he took a serious attitude toward his youthful instructions in the faith."
Why not ask Obama.? Because other people would know better what he thought?
Scott, I would not trust Barack Obama if he said "I'm Barack Obama."
You are complicating my point. My strong hunch is that he is not a man of faith -- any faith.
I am semi-persuaded that he once was listed, on paper, as a Muslim, but only in the sense that my Mom was listed as a Catholic. (His agnostic mother surely did not take him to any sort of religious school.)
The fib would come in any attempt to cover up this history.
Did he flirt with actual Islamic piety during his days in Indonesia? Possibly. From what I've read, such evidence as we possess certainly points in that direction, even if we have no hard proof.
If so, you may fairly ask: What of it? Teens often "try on" different religious modalities, just as they sometimes go through a goth or punk phase. It's a common thing.
Again, I see nothing wrong in any of this. I have absolutely no problem if, as a youth, he once flirted with Islam and then lost interest. (Muslims may be of a different opinion, of course.)
The problem is in pretending that it never happened. IF it happened.
And that's where the concept of fibbing enters.
(I wonder how many other politicians feign religiosity? Neither Poppy Bush nor Bill Clinton ever struck me as being very religious. Half the time I think GWB is faking it; the other half, I think he's a sincere zealot. I know for a fact that Reagan was sincerely intrigued by all that Hal Lindsey "end times" crap, though I doubt that he prayed much.)
You have been my #1, go-to, blog. I have always been amazed at your range and depth of knowledge. I've learned!
But, sorry to say--especially for me, I'm deleting your blog from my favorites.
Not only is it "all-about-Obama 100% of the time," but I have lived throught almost eight years of George Bush's administration. I have a daughter. The Supreme Court decisions are important to me and to her future. Any Democrat is better than any Republican.
I know you have countless arguments, and more and more, shall we say, theories, for disagreement.
Everyday when I click Cannonfire, I hope, just some times, it's a different subject than Obama. You've lost me and I'm sad because I've so enjoyed some of your posts.
Joanne
Sorry, Joanne. Maybe you'll pop by on the weekends? I usually have a non-political story at that time.
At some point, the election WILL end. It seems a little hard to believe, I admit.
This has all been pretty wrenching forme as well, sicne i once considered myself a (small) part of a movement. And then -- either the progressive sites turned into something different, or I saw them in their true light. Or...something. A any rate, it has not been easy.
But, I wasn't writing about the good/bad, pros/cons, or my likes/dieslikes of the progressive sites; I was writing about your site--my point exactly.
Joanne
But blogland is where I live, J. That's MY point.
Another point. Nobody seems to CARE about the non-Obama posts. Whenever I publish one, it gets no response -- except for the inevitable (unpublished) note from some Obot who says "So, you've finally given up, Cannon? Very wise." And, of course, that smarmy remark will commit me to hitting Obama all the harder.
Last Easter Sunday, I wrote a piece called "The Sex Magick of Jesus Christ" which -- though exquisitely well-researched -- was utterly filthy. I thought for sure that offended people would start an interesting dialog.
Instead...nuthin'. No-one got offended.
But say one unworshipful word about the Savior From Illinois, and you'll face the wrath of all Hell's demons. What does that fact tell us about our culture?
I totally missed your sex magick of Jesus.Is there a link?
Have you read 'Jesus the Magician' and 'The Secret Gospel of Mark', both by Morton Smith? The Secret Gospel is now being attacked as a fraud but the jury is still out.
Hey Joseph! I just received in the mail today Rott's symphony.
I am about to go listen and look at my new book on Pieter Claesz: Master of Haarlem Still Life.
I find the following even more disquieting than the "fib" (lie?)Obama MAY HAVE made about his religion and his flight from reality.He has set up a website to "Fight The Smears" and the first one is about being Muslim. It seems very important to him that he not be seen as a Muslim, to the point of saying that others are "smearing" him when they suggest such a thing about his past.That may not only reflect badly on Muslims (his possible flight from his heritage), but also on people who are seeking intellectual honesty (asking the question).
Copied from site:
Back to Fight the Smears home
The truth about Barack Obama's faith
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lie:
Barack Obama is a Muslim.
Truth:
Senator Obama has never been a Muslim, was not raised as a Muslim, and is a committed Christian.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lie:
Barack Obama attended a "radical madrassa."
Truth:
Barack Obama never attended a "radical madrassa." Watch the video below to learn the truth:
Scott, for sex magick, try here:
http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2008/03/sex-magick-of-jesus-christ.html
You think the people who come here would be interested in a post about Secret Mark? I've been reading about that for ages...
Hope you like the Rott. It's a flawed work, and it is not universally liked. But I love the opening and the finale. Pretty much everyone admits that the start of the third movement is the most Mahleresque thing you can find outside of Mahler.
"You think the people who come here would be interested in a post about Secret Mark?"-Joe
I don't think so but then I don't know anything about the people who come here and what they are looking for. I would be very interested to read what you had to say on the subject. It is something I have also studied for years and years.
I did like the Rott. I agree with your assessment. I found it uplifting in a heroic grand sort of way where Mahler I find beautifully but profoundly sad with passages that resurrect the soul from the depths.
I will have a look later at your Jesus magick writings.
You can edit this down if you want but I wanted you to have the info. I read your Jesus Magick piece and enjoyed it. I flirted with Crowley here in SF during the 70's. I wonder if you might consider yet another interpretation for the beloved disciple?
Man Jesus Loved: Homoerotic Narratives from the New Testament by Theodore W., Jr. Jennings
From amazon:
"The Man Jesus Loved" clears away centuries of traditional Christian teaching to reexamine Jesus's positions and roles with regard to personal relationships and family values and how these relate to the Kingdom of Heaven.
Members of the Christian Right in the USA are frequently known to state that biological family trumps everything, that marriage can only be between an adult man and an adult woman, that active homosexuals are automatically condemned to burn in the flames of hell, and that women and children should be subordinate to men. Centuries of the teachings of St. Paul, many early Church Fathers, of Church Councils, of Orthodox Jewish (and Islamic) teachings, and Papal directives are cited to support these views.
The author, Theodore W. Jennings, Jr., Ph.D. is a professor of biblical and constructive theology at Chicago Theological Seminary and is a United Methodist clergyman. He is not a crank but a trained professional willing to take another look at the Jesus story before the Church became a part of the respectable Establishment of the Roman Empire. It turns out that all the above mentioned teachings of members of the Christian Right are challenged in the Gospels (and in supporting documents like the Gospel of Thomas).
Jennings starts out by examining the title character's role in the Gospel of St. John [John 13, 18-21]. It turns out that there is substantial similarity between the relationship between Jesus and the Beloved Disciple and that between a lover and a beloved in a Hellenistic gymnasium; nowadays we would say they were boyfriends or lovers. Jennings reviews various attempts to identify the Beloved Disciple and goes into the stories of the nude youth fleeing at the arrest of Jesus, of Lazarus, of the youth at the tomb of Jesus, and of the usage of the words eros vs. philia vs. agape (different Koine Greek words for love) in the text. Furthermore, there is no indication Jesus and the Beloved Disciple would not have consummated the relationship. Jennings makes a case that traditional commentators prefer to ignore or sublimate.
Jennings moves on to show how the story of the Centurion's lad (pais,doulos) [Matthew 8:5-13] might reasonably be interpreted as Jesus being happy to help a sick lover in a same-sex relationship and on Jesus's compassion for eunichs.
The final section gathers the evidence that Jesus wanted to convert traditional family values to a situation where everyone cares about everyone else and all have a direct connection to God. My example: Jesus would be angry at the present situation where wealthy families push their children to go to the best schools and succeed-or-else while allowing poor children to go to schools with leaky roofs and no books and have no health care. Jesus supported and included women on a largely equal basis with men. Jesus wanted people to break their dependence on family and the accumulation of wealth and power and instead to treat each other well and to do good. This includes treating women as equals, being accepting of various sexual orientations, and not condemning sex itself. Traditional morality is mostly focused on preserving property rights and amassing wealth; the original position of the Jesus movement was different.
Although theology and Biblical research can be a slow slog to read, Jennings writes well enough to keep up one's interest. There is a bit of repetition, but since the ideas are untraditional, they do bear repeating.
While I find his arguments convincing, I suppose I am still fond of the notion that God had choices in how to incarnate the Son and that if Jesus was to experience all the temptations of Earth fairly, He would have been a Kinsey 3 (tempted equally by men and women), rather than a Kinsey 0 (the Traditional position) or a Kinsey 4-6 (gayish to gay) which may be what Jennings would suggest.
When one reads of the differences between Jesus's teaching and Traditional Abrahamic social teachings, it makes me wonder if someone could calculate more accurately than I could the number of gay people (say, from the set of people reaching 12+ years of age) subjected to Abrahamic rules over the centuries. Is it possible that the aggregate damage done to gays (violence, theft) exceeds that to the Jews during the Holocaust? (The count of adversely affected women dwarf both.) Traditional Abrahamic religion has been complicit in so much and is so unrepentant.
This book is an excellent start on reclaiming Christianity from Traditionalists. Jesus can be Our Personal Savior too.
In the overheated atmosphere of celebrity gossip news, BHO would be portrayed endlessly as truly a (secret, therefore, dangerous) Muslim should his actual birth certificate say that religion, even though newborns have no religion nor say in what their parents may say.
Given that most people can agree with you about the nominal nature of many alleged religious affiliations, and common sense tells all that babies are not religious in any sense at all, the leap from what might be on a birth certificate to a claim about a 40 some year old man should be too ridiculous to worry about appearances. However, much of the realities of these appearances and how they are perceived is how they are portrayed. This would be portrayed in a way to make BHO a dangerous adherent of an inimical world view dedicated to destroying the Western world, and its leading actor, the US. (Not true of Islam in general, but another public relations claim that would be made).
So, if BHO's campaign is hiding the original birth certificate, I would understand why, and not think that was cheating or fibbing, exactly. Unless they also claimed they didn't have it, it didn't exist, etc.
...sofla
Hi Joe,
The extended remarks are from a review at amazon. I am afraid I didn't take enough care in making that clear... that it is not me speaking.
sofla, this is one instance where I tend to have faith in the American people. I think most folks are bright enough to understand that babies don't choose their faith, and that Barack Obama Jr. was raised by an irreligious mother from a Christian family.
The trouble is, if Obama took pains to hide a birth certificate, then a segment of the populace will use that fact to spread rumors that he has a secret agenda. Whereas he probably hid the thing just to make life a little easier.
Scott: What's really quite sad about the Rott piece is the juxtaposition of self-image and reality. Clearly, that symphony depicts a young man's rich inner life in which he imagines himself descending from the clouds (the opening) and then stomping his way from one triumph to another. And in reality, his existence was just about as miserable as any young man's can be.
The opening part of the fourth movement goes on a bit too long -- but you can really hear the pre-echoes of the Mahler Second, can't you?
If I do write about Secret Mark, I'll present the case that Morton Smith was a hoaxer. But until then -- have you ever checked out the photos of Mar Saba, available on the web? The exterior architecture, is incredibly funky. And the art on the walls inside is AMAZING. My art historian ladyfriend was stunned when she saw it, because that stuff never shows up in books or college classes. It's terra incognita, methinks, for someone in her line.
I do like what you wrote about Rott and Mahler. Fine words.
One more point on Mark then I will try to wait for anything you would care to express later.
There are two ( or more?) book out there "exposing" Smith as a fraud and hoaxer. Maybe, maybe not? BUT do read :
Mark's Other Gospel: Rethinking Morton Smith's Controversial Discovery By Scott Gregory Brown,
and see here:
http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Secret/SecMark-News.html
The photos I saw of Mar Saba are incredible. I would love to stay there.
http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/Marsaba.html
Hi Joe,
The Jerusalem Post young Barack = Moslem story turns out to be a fraud. Please note:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/from-the-fact-c.html
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