65% of the country wants single payer. At least, they say they want a "government administered health insurance plan," according the latest CBS/NYT poll. See question 57, here.
Question 58 is even juicier:
"What if changes to the health care system do not include the option of a government administered health insurance plan? In that case, would you favor or oppose the changes under consideration?
Favor: 38%
Oppose: 40%
Don't know/No answer: 22%
Yes, the people are smarter than I thought. But they still haven't wised up to what Congress and Obama are doing.
Most of the poll respondents probably thought that the "government administered" plan under discussion would be available to 100 percent of the country. Essentially, that's a single payer plan, although many seem uncomfortable with the term. Alas, the public option in the House plan is a weak and wilted off-shoot, available to only some ten percent of the populace. And even that has been sliced out of the Senate bill.
Obama thinks we can live without a public option. Only 38% of the country agrees with him.
19 comments:
Thank God Obama saved us from Hillary, the corporate Democrat.
Are we all to assume that you believe a "government administered health insurance plan" will be better? Like some total Medicare program for everybody?
To assume that some massive new bureaucracy will "administer" America's healthcare system more efficiently than the present admittedly flawed system is relly, really reaching. The governments track record demonstrates the fatal flaw in that kind of thinking, and there is nothing anywhere to indicate that govermnent bureaucracy has improved one iota.
In a government run health plan the people who will actually be doing all the work will be hordes of uncaring paper shufflers only there for a paycheck... Bean counters that won't give a good goddamn about the lives they will be affecting.
Pass compresensive tort reform. Allow national competition for insurance policies. Stop supporting big pharma and their outrageous pricing policies. Let's try that for a year or two before we leap in head first and change the whole system.
As an aside... Do you really believe that poll you cited? There are plenty of polls out there that show vastly different numbers. Did you just pick one that supports your opinoins?
"To assume that some massive new bureaucracy will 'administer' America's healthcare system more efficiently... is relly [sic], really reaching."
Do you relly really think that the hospitals in Germany, Canada, France, Italy, the UK, etc. work as "badly" as your DMV? or SUNY? Do you have that little faith in your system(s) that you need the insurance industry to lead you around by the spleen?
"The governments track record demonstrates the fatal flaw in that kind of thinking, and there is nothing anywhere to indicate that govermnent [sic] bureaucracy has improved one iota."
I wonder what you think it's like to have to go to a doctor in one of the 'other' developed countries. Do you really believe that they have to fill out 12 separate documents, and be assessed, before seeing a specialist?
You ought to see some other parts of the world, Bob, because that is not at all the case. There is no massive bureaucratic process-- in Canada, all one has to do is renew their plastic card once every four years. After that, when arriving at a hospital or doctors office, you swipe your card. That's all. Is that too much bureaucracy for you?
"In a government run health plan the people who will actually be doing all the work will be hordes of uncaring paper shufflers only there for a paycheck... Bean counters that won't give a good goddamn"
Again, in reality, as opposed to conspy tin hatting, this is patently false. The people who do ALL the work up here in evil socialist Canada (who happen to have the best banks in the G20) in our universal health care system, are doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. They look and work very much like your own doctors and nurses. The don't instantly morph into Patty & Selma
The system you have is pathetic. The fact that employers have to be responsible for their employees health is ludicrous. I guess you feel that the bossman is better than Big Gov., but I'd rather not give my boss my balls on a platter and be afraid that I can't go to a doctor if i tell him to fuck off. If he deserves it.
At least we don't have death panels who decide that a malignant cancer was a pre-existing loophole, or that a wage slave has to copay for her $120K operation....
I read somewhere that in Canada, they use 1.3 cents on the dollar for administrative purposes and in the US, it's over 30 cents on the dollar. Also, they said it costs $300 average per person in Canada to cover everyone and well over $1000 per person in the US (and not everyone is covered). So much for the bureaucracy argument.
And to what Bobndoug said, you don't even swap a card most of the time. They just copy the number. Even if it's expired, most docs will give you a week or two to renew it and still treat you right then and there.
Do hospitals in the US say "don't worry about being insured, we'll give you two weeks to get one" and then they treat you right there? I don't know. I don't live in the US.
Funny how you'll take care of your roads, but your health, oh no. Every man for themselves.
Frankly, I would love a health care system that was as efficient and courteous as the post office and the DMV. Not to mention, most people who use the government-run Medicare are tickled with it, and the government-run VA medical system is one of the finest in the world.
Yeah, so much better dealing with those overpaid bureaucrats at my insurance company who get to decide that after years of paying insane premiums they don't want to pay for your cancer treatment or my prescription drugs.
"Bean counters that won't give a good goddamn about the lives they will be affecting."
OK, this is too funny. Yeah, because those treatment-deny and recission-instituting insurance co. bureaucrats are such treasures to deal with. Yes, they are so compassionate and selfless when they deny deny deny and dare their customers to sue them to get any relief. Oh it is such joy dealing with them.
Spare me. When I go to the post office or the DMV I don't get told that they can't provide the service I'm paying for because last week I had a cold I didn't tell them about, or that I should hand-carry my own package across the country.
I live in NC and the DMV functions quite nicely, thank you. Both Medicare and the VA function reasonably well. I have seen no compelling evidence that extending medical benefits to all will create a huge new class of bureaucrats. That is an assumption.
Blue Cross charges NC $10 for every claim filed. The previous administrator, EDS, charged 50 cents. Is there a disconnect there? And no, I don't know why we switched, but suspect if you follow the money you would know. So given the outrageous overhead noted from the private sector, how could it be any worse? Will the public employees of this new health care hullabaloo be compensated in the tens of millions like the private sector emploees? No way in Hell, so you already have savings in place.
It doesn't matter if it is tax or a copay, it still comes out of your pocket.
btw, this is the real Bob.
Vastly amusing... comparing Canada's system with ours.
We have more uninsured (49 million or so, according to the feds) than Canada has citizens... 33,791,000, as of September 26, 2009.
You live under the protection of American military might and have no realistic capability to defend yourselves. You spend next to nothing on self-defense. You do no military or medical research worth mentioning and offer effectively nothing in financial or physical aid to a world full of incredible problems. As a result, you are able spend more of your money on your nationalized health care program.
Even so, your more affluent citizens beat a path to our medical centers.
Our system is "pathetic"? What a simplistic comment. Our system is far from perfect, but it insures over 250,000,000 Americans and God knows how many millions of illegals. That kind of burden would break Canada almost overnight.
By the way MrX... Show me the last time an illegal was refused rapid emergency medical help in America because he did not have a "card". What hospitals in America DO say is: "Don't worry about not being insured, we'll take care of you anyway". It's the law of the land. Our hospitals cannot turn away any person in need... Ever.
Quit thumbing your nose at us... You haven't earned the right.
To assume that some massive new bureaucracy will "administer" America's healthcare system more efficiently than the present admittedly flawed system is relly, really reaching.
Ah, no, it's a simple extrapolation from the 45 million seniors already covered under Medicare, which is at present over ten times times more efficient (3% of costs vs. 31%) than private insurance.
Pass compresensive tort reform.
In other words, save at best 3% by allowing doctors who maim and kill patients to get away with it? Nice moral structure you have there.
Allow national competition for insurance policies.
It's unlikely it would decrease costs, since you would still be a single individual, and not part of a defined larger group (such as a union or company) which uses its ability to negotiate on behalf of its members - its power of numbers, if you will - to reduce costs.
Stop supporting big pharma and their outrageous pricing policies.
In other words, stop taking the drugs you need? Really nice suggestion for those with cancer, diabetes, and AIDS.
We have more uninsured (49 million or so, according to the feds) than Canada has citizens... 33,791,000, as of September 26, 2009.
In other words, we have 49 million uninsured, and Canada has NO uninsured. Gee, that criticism sure backfired.
As a result, you are able spend more of your money on your nationalized health care program.
Well, they may be able to (I'll leave that aside) but due to having goverment-administered health care, Canada spends a lower percentage of GNP on it than the US does.
Even so, your more affluent citizens beat a path to our medical centers.
All citizens in Canada needing treatment get it the same day (and in fact even 85% of those wanting non-necessary treatment - cosmetic surgery for vanity's sake - get it the same day). So any 'affluent citizens' you allege to be doing this are irrelevant to the discussion of providing true health care (i.e. the treatment of disease, injury, and other necessary procedures related to same).
Our system is far from perfect, but it insures over 250,000,000 Americans
And the result? Compared to Canada - which is the point under discussion - the US spends over 67%% more on health care per person and yet Americans have a more than 2% lower life expectancy...and on top of that, over 700,000 people go bankrupt each year due to medical bills.
That kind of burden would break Canada almost overnight.
The American system would certainly break down if it had to cope with 9.2 times as many people [313 million-49 million /34 million], in other words, if it had to cope with over 2.4 billion people, so this agrument makes no sense.
Interesting math fact: For the same amount an American citizen is charged for one year of just administrative costs (i.e. no treatment, just paperwork) a Canadian citizen can receive over 190 days of complete medical care.
Sergei Rostov
Bob (Gun Deck Train Bob, not the original bob), we earned our right to thumb our nose 200 years ago, when we burned down the White House and kicked James Wilkinson's sorry excuse for a General's ass out of my city, Montreal, and finally out of the US Army (something America has never remembered to thank us for).
The rich may sometimes go to the top US medical institutions when they are looking for a treatment that is not yet accepted in Canada, or for quicker service. But these are extremely rare cases. The numbers that you Yanks toss about regarding Canadians fleeing our medical system are completely bloated (literally, considering 80% of Canadians in US Hospitals are delivering babies). The stats show that over a 5 year period, less than 0.4 of 1% of Canadians who sought medical help went to the US for elective surgery. It actually makes no sense for a 'well off' Canadian to seek treatment that they can get (slightly slower, perhaps) at home. There is no private insurance that covers "elective surgeries" and even if it is a cancer treatment, the moment you skip borders, it's elective. So you have to be a little more than "well off" The hordes of Canadian medical refugees are phantoms used in your decadal debate.
As for your protecting me-- gee thanks. Your might protects me from who, exactly? The Soviets? From the Jihadists? From Iran? who do you think is Canada's most frightening neighbour? Who wants our water? Who wants our uranium? who wants our diamonds? who wants our arctic passage? Yeah, you're like a Cosa Nostra protection racket.
You say that we do nothing to protect ourselves (i guess you've never heard of diplomacy), and you claim we give nothing to the third world in Aid, but you obviously have not read one word to defend your belief. Not even a news service. We just gave 2.5B to Africa while you were writing, where's your comparative $25 billion? I'm no diplomat so I will say it in a great Canadian way; You're talking out of your ass, Bob (not the real Bob).
Especially when you start yammering about us doing "no medical research worth mentioning." Good thing when you stop talking out of your ass and get your colon scanned you can thank Canada. As can the 26 million Americans who have Diabetes, they can thank the unmentionable Canadian invention of insulin. Same with bone marrow transplants, aortic valve transplants, robotic angioplasty, thermography, Cobalt60 and radio-oncology, noticing CEA glycoprotines for early treatment of cancers, and of course finding Alzheimer's before it starts, stopping it and reversing it... Heck, even if you're just an obese person with sleep apnea, if you listen to your doctor and wear your mask-- that hear attack you didn't have, thank the people north of the 49th.
It behooves one to ask, sir, is the attraction one (suffering from such blinding jingoistic myopia) feels towards a blog like this the same as a moth's compulsion to fly into fire? Do you really believe that the lies you believe will protect you?
Love,
Bob & Doug
BTW I know that the DMV works fine, and that SUNY is a great place to go for a degree. I was being sarcastic.
Doug&Bob,
America is still digesting the fact that there is a chance that there might be a possibility that in some abstract way (even though it's not be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt) America may not be entitled to the adjectives GREATEST, BEST or MOST.
We are still trying to sort out who won the civil war and what rights were extended to our darker skinned brothers. To make matters worse, we have had to figure out who is allowed to immigrate to our country (in the mean time a whole bunch of people have gone ahead and moved here and started families not wanting to waite till we figure things out) and what kind of rights and freedoms we are willing to extend to them (specially that complicated bit about ownership-if you own it then I don't- unlike we are both free to say what we want). Meanwhile, our elected officials and some appointed ones (to be honest with you, they seem to be a bit two faced) have given these precious rights to some A-moral entities who have been stealing us blind. Add to it fighting the cold war and a few other pesky wars while policing the middle east and south america (you know promoting democracy and capitalism) and you can see that we have had our hands full.
So, take it easy on Bob. If he wants to pay twice as much for health insurance and have treatment denied to him or his coverage dropped or even the right to go bancrupt if he gets sick, then by God, he has a right to do that without having to defend his rights in front of you Canadians!
I'm not so sure that single-payer is the way to go. Have you read T.R. Reidman's "The Healing of America?" He describes the health care plans of all the nations with universal health care (everyone but us and the third world.) Some have single-payer, some have hundreds of private insurance programs. But most of them are nonprofit and regulated by the government. Some of them have waiting lists and some provide faster service than we do. All of them are cheaper.
(Note: I Realized I made a math error earlier. That should read "7.7 times" and "2 billion." Doesn't void the point, by any means...but I wanted it to be accurate. -SAR)
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BobNDoug (coo-roo-coo-coo, etc.)
Bob's exhibiting a typical right-wing characteristic: asserting facts without evidence. But don't mind him too much - he probably thinks the US discovered fire and invented the wheel, too. :)
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gary -
Without delving into the details of those programs - I will have to read that book, thanks for the reference - having one payer would at least simplify consumer decisions (consumers wouldn't have to consider administrative costs as a factor in choosing a provider). Requiring providers to be non-profit might (might) stifle efficiency and innovation.
Also, I would also say offhand that the best result would be to have single-payer, but have the government hire private negotiators on commission to bargain with health-care providers.
Sergei Rostov
Doug and Bob Mankenzie...
"Do you relly really think that the hospitals in Germany, Canada, France, Italy, the UK, etc. work as "badly" as your DMV? or SUNY?
Guess what?
I do not care how the hospitals in Germany, Canada, France, Italy, the UK, etc. work.
Thats an an issue that Germans, Canadians, Frenchmen, Italians, Etc. need to determine, not me.
I wonder what you think it's like to have to go to a doctor in one of the 'other' developed countries.
Guess what?
I do not care what people in other countries have to go through to see a doctor.
Other peoples in other contries are not my responsibility - never will be.
You ought to see some other parts of the world, Bob, because that is not at all the case.
You really believe that nonsense? Lets see some of that proof you babble on about.
Again, in reality, as opposed to conspy tin hatting, this is patently false. The people who do ALL the work up here in evil socialist Canada (who happen to have the best banks in the G20) in our universal health care system, are doctors and nurses and hospital administrators.
----> yawn <----
Goodie for you. Your doctors and nurses and hospital administrators do all the paperwork. Maybe thats why your serious medical proceedures take months to schedule, and why Canadians with things like brain tumors head across the border as fast as their wallets will let them.
Just in case your two heads put together haven't figured it out, Obama's health system will create a brand new bureaucracy to handle all the paperwork, and it will be massive. As a result, it will be slow, cumbersome and prone to mistakes.
The system you have is pathetic. The fact that employers have to be responsible for their employees health is ludicrous. I guess you feel that the bossman is better than Big Gov., but I'd rather not give my boss my balls on a platter and be afraid that I can't go to a doctor if i tell him to fuck off. If he deserves it.
Spoken like a true "free lunch" socialist. If you did not get your "free" medicine from your government, would you refuse to have your boss provide your health coverage? Would your prefer to buy your own health insurance... At todays costs? You two are full of dribbly brown stuff.
At least we don't have death panels who decide that a malignant cancer was a pre-existing loophole, or that a wage slave has to copay for her $120K operation....
Classic mid-slinging garbage... "death panels", "wage slaves"...
"Death Panels"? LOL. We do have insurers that are outright thieves that deny coverage to anybody for any reason, and what we would like is for the Obama administration to close the loopholes that allow for this type of conduct, not dismantle the entire system.
"Wage slave". Pure babble. Do you work for somebody.. anybody? Then you could be called a "wage slave", a prostitute that sells your mind and body for money.
I note you do not talk of the concept being floated by this White House that babies are worthless, since we have nothing invested in them, and that people over 65 are almost as worthless since we can't get much more use out of them. These are two groups of humans that will be shuffled to the end of the line when the inevitable rationing hits the government health care system, rationing that is guaranteed when 45 million uninsured are added to the rolls. You don't have that looming specter in Canada, so ignoring it is easy.
And since neither of you seem to understand what Obama and his Czars want to change our health system into, try reading up a bit on the subject before your next post.
In other words, quit acting like American Senators and try reading the bill before you comment on it.
To Anonymous:
Ah, no, it's a simple extrapolation from the 45 million seniors already covered under Medicare, which is at present over ten times times more efficient (3% of costs vs. 31%) than private insurance.
REALLY?
Who do you think handles most of Medicare paperwork? The government?
NO.
It is private insurers like HUMANA, UNITED HEALTH CARE and others, who have contracted with the federal government to exactly that. A senior going to a doctor or hospital does not show his Medicare card, he shows his insurance card from the aboce named private insurers.
Obama's plan would eliminate these services,(not immeadiately, but eventually) thus requiring - as he has said - a new government bureaucray to handle the paperwork. Paperwork to handle one-sixth of our nations economy. That will be a BIG bureaucracy.
READ THE BILL,
BobnDoug sez:
Bob (Gun Deck Train Bob, not the original bob), we earned our right to thumb our nose 200 years ago, when we burned down the White House and kicked James Wilkinson's sorry excuse for a General's ass out of my city, Montreal, and finally out of the US Army (something America has never remembered to thank us for).
And the Romans once ruled the world.
Wanna try it again?
Beeta sez:
So, take it easy on Bob. If he wants to pay twice as much for health insurance and have treatment denied to him or his coverage dropped or even the right to go bancrupt if he gets sick, then by God, he has a right to do that without having to defend his rights in front of you Canadians!
Yup... the Guv'mint will take care of everything... Just EVERYTHING!
No no no! Don't fix the problems in our present system that successfully serves 250,000,000 Americans, millions of illegals, and gobs of those happy and contented Canadians!
Destroy the whole thing and replace it with a brand new and totally untested something-or-other that Washington bureacrats are guaranteed to run so such better!
You must be one of those poeple who actually believe Obama is telling the truth.
Try reading some of his older quotes, things he said when he wasn't trying to cram this thing down our throats.
Bob. I do remember Obama,s earlier stands on healthcare and that is why I am mad as hell. I am for single payer and dismantling the obese, good for nothing insurance industry . So, call me a socialist if you want, but an Obot, I am not!
Bob -
First, your statements about Canada's system have already been countered with the facts, so why do you continue to repeat them?
I do not care etc.
Of course you don't. If you cared, then instead of simply making statements you can't back up, you'd have to actually look at those other countries' systems, actually look at the facts, and have to admit that those other countries do a far better job at providing health care.
It is private insurers like HUMANA, UNITED HEALTH CARE and others, who have contracted with the federal government to exactly that.
In other words, the government in effect adds the private insurers' bureaucracies to its own, and even with this increase in size does a far better job of keeping (those same insurers') administrative costs down than they do themselves...which destroys your argument.
Obama's plan would
We're not talking about Obama's plan; we're talking about single-payer. Maybe you should READ THE POST before commenting on it.
Destroy the whole thing and replace it with a brand new and totally untested
Untested...except for all the countries who have single-payer already all of which do a better job than the US does.
Next time, get the facts and read the post you're actually commenting on first, so that you don't look so foolish.
Sergei Rostov
Oh, and a p.s.:
Bob -
And the Romans once ruled the world.
And America used to be admired and respected in the world. So what's your point?
Spoken like a true "free lunch" socialist.
Since socialism is the idea that everybody works together and then everybody benefits together, this makes no sense.
Don't fix the problems
We're trying to. That's why we want single-payer, and not Obama's plan.
Dueling Bob quotes:
In a government run health plan the people who will actually be doing all the work will be hordes of uncaring paper shufflers only there for a paycheck...
vs.
Who do you think handles most of Medicare paperwork? The government?
NO.
It is private insurers like HUMANA, UNITED HEALTH CARE and others, who have contracted with the federal government to exactly that.
Since Medicare IS a government-run health insurance program, you are contradicting yourself.
Sergei Rostov
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