As for Social Security, "we didn't have it until 1935," Paul says. "I mean, do you read stories about how many people were laying in the streets and dying and didn't have medical treatment? . . . Prices were low and the country was productive and families took care of themselves and churches built hospitals and there was no starvation."This is an utterly false view of history. Back then, this country had plenty of hunger. Disease and hopelessness and homelessness. Company towns. Child labor. Six-day work weeks. Ten and twelve and fourteen hour work days. No access to higher education. No right to unionize. No workplace safety standards: Ever read about the Triangle factory fire? No food safety standards: Ever read The Jungle? No true freedom to protest: Ever read about the Haymarket riot? No economic safety: Massive Depressions and panics occurred regularly. No retirement: People worked until they dropped -- and they dropped young.
If Paul-ism ever became the rule, 60 would be the new 90.
Read Paul Krugman's remarkable new book The Conscience of a Liberal, in which he relates what really occurred in this country during the pre-New Deal era.
The economy is like our road system: If no rules existed, everyone except thugs would be afraid to drive. Paul wants to abolish the last vestiges of those laws which make life tolerable.
I despise this war. Hated it from the beginning, from before the beginning. I think Bush really is the worst president in this nation's history. But I'd rather have four more years of Bush than four years of Ron Paul.
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"truthout.org" calls Kucinich "far left". I think he is the only left left..practically. After Joseph McCarthy demolished the liberal wing with the co- operation of the media, (like todays fascist rags and boob tubed charlatans) the left has never recovered. What we have today is the corruption filled representatives jockeying for position at the trough for handouts and slop from the corporations. See them squirming, pushing and shoving with their snouts agape? That's what I see.
Both sides are interesting points in the debate.
Child labor happens in ALL new industrial economies. That's because the adults have skills ingrained from the pre-industrial economies. Thankfully, as the economy truly industrializes, people soon see that adults are more efficient than children. This is true until the government gets involved and puts limits on how the adults can work. The child labor stories you heard in America were not ended because of Federal laws -- we naturally grew out of them.
Company towns had a similar root issue: the new economy of industrialization, and the machinery in the hands of the elite. Most of the elite were VERY politically connected to the Federal government. Don't ignore that facet.
The Jungle is a book of lies. Have you read the history of yellow journalism as to why it was written? It is horrifically inaccurate, and the reason for writing it was to instill fear so there would be more government control of capitalism. Look at Rachel Carson's fictional book called Silent Spring to see more madness over fiction.
Massive Depressions and panics occurred due to the Federal Reserve (1913 start date) manipulating paper money.
The one thing you are missing is that, Constitutionally, ALL these issues you have problems with are more properly dealt with locally, by the States or the cities. There is NO NEED for a Federal government to set labor laws, or medical laws, or child work laws, or union laws, or safety standards. If you don't like the way your particular State handles these issues, change them -- or move to a State where you can be with people who agree with you.
At the Federal level, nothing you write about has worked when regulated. It's all a failure. You just won't admit it, and you want MORE failure by wanting more control at the Federal level.
Ron Paul would be a boon to liberals and progressives: he would remove the Federal stranglehold that prevents you from attempting your Utopia at a State level. If it works, other States would quickly mimic it.
a.b. dada, I haven't read The Jungle or Silent Spring, although I walked and played in my youth where Rachel walked also, in Schenley Park and Frick Park, and also where Annie Dillard walked and played in her youth. Have you read Annie's fictions?
You do know that the War Between the States (1861-1865) decided most of the issues you seem to believe ought to be up for grabs, don't you?
Do you really think it's okay for a state such as California to use leaded gasoline if it wants to, to place no controls over the sulfur in its auto exhaust if it doesn't want to, even though the prevailing winds and the earth's rotation mean that those leaden and sulfurous compounds will precipitate and rain poisonous and corrosive acids on the populations east of California?
You mention 1913 as important. It's also the year when Americans fell in love with the automobile, and it's been driving them crazy ever since.
You've said that very well a.b.!
Ron Paul believes in the Constitution. Perhaps Cannon should read it?
What the hell makes you Libertarians think you are welcome here?
Ideologues never let mere fact get in the way belief. So: The Jungle is based on lies and was, of course, part of DA CONSPIRACY. Riiiiight. Upton Sinclair was a willing tool of the Great Gummint Conspiracy -- even though he could never get along with much of anyone, and even though the "gummint" was pretty much bought-and-paid-for by Big Business at that time.
Never mind that there is not a single shred of evidence for that totally insane proposition in any biography of Sinclair I've ever consulted. You WANT it to be so, and therefore it IS so. Classic "conspiracist" thinking!
Same thing with Rachel Carson. She's another tool of Da Conspiracy, it seems.
For a while now, I've been wondering when and why Libertarianism became congruent with conspiracism. Now we know the answer. Libertarians need an all-purpose answer whenever someone points out a fact of piece of evidence that destroys their falsifications of history. So every time one says to a Libertarian: "Look at this book, this news clip, this poll, these numbers -- they prove your theories wrong," the Lib-Conner can simply say "That book, that news clip, that poll, those numbers were all part of the Great Conspiracy."
It's like trying to convince a fundie that the Earth is more than six thousand years old.
Well, the fact is that the not-very-Libertarian nations of Western Europe have a higher standard of living than we do. Yes, I know the Libs will always mount a counterargument when the talk turns to the longer life spans and greater social mobility in France and Sweden. Yes, I know that the the Libs will always find some way to argue against those who point out that this country achieved its greatest days when our tax rate was most progressive.
Similarly, the fundies will always find some way to argue against those pesky dinosaur fossils. Fact be damned. Rationalization springs eternal.
Finally, there's the fall-back position: "True Libertarianism has never been tried!" Yes it was: It was called the 19th Century, and the vast majority of people who lived in the big cities at that time were miserable.
I have seen the past and it didn't work.
bill, I should not have let your insulting comment through. I've read the Constitution a number of times. Straight through. Didn't see a word mandating or even favoring the gospel according to Ayn Rand.
As Joseph says, Libertarianism was the law of the land back then...and it didn't work, but it goes back further to the articles of confederation where robber barons ruled the states individually with their own script that they could manipulate at their pleasure.
That is why (some of) the people wanted more Federal control.
This author makes it pretty clear to what was happening back then, (conspiracy s and all)
http://www.sidis.net/TSChap25.htm
Flo
This confirms my worst fears.
For some time now, I've grown very distasteful of the Ron Paul lovefest coming from Progressives. We keep seeing articles written praising him to the nines penned by Progressives claiming that Paul will end the Iraq war and everything will be hunky-dory (of course, they add that there are a few things about him they don't like, but that MUST be swept aside).
Yes, the Iraq Occupation is important. I was not in favor of it, and I was aghast to see the country lied into it--but Joe is write--IT IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE!
MadFlorian's expose of Paul is truly shocking. No money for Katrina victims? No money for stem-cell research? Getting rid of SS? And some are okay with these things being sacrificed as long as the Iraq imbroglio is ended?
No. No f***ing way should this happen. Paul is getting a free pass because of his opposition to the war, but that has blinded many people from asking honest questions about his record. Thanks to MadFlorian and Joe for exposing this guy's true nature. After all, if we are going to pound down the Dem candidates about their views on various issues, why give this guy a pass?
I will not be kneeling at the alter of Ron Paul.
Predictions of the next 911 by a Professional Geologist.
www.H2onE2.com Glacial Respiration, Conceptual Ring of Ice, The End of Linear Western Religion
A Geological Exploration of an E2 Earthen Planet And the H2 Human Species
Author: B Billy Marse, Professional Geologist
Brief Description:
www.H2onE2.com is an exploration of the universe, geology, climate, biology, humans, psychology, folklore and ancient structures to uncover the beginning and disclose the end of linear western religion. The true DaVinci Code behind the bible is not a supreme spiritual power but a scientific record of climate change described as Glacial Respiration. The Greek philosophers originated the practice of communicating a hidden idea or message in the short story format, as a metaphor. In the bible, metaphors conceal historic climate change within the fanciful stories. The theory of Glacial Respiration explains the myth behind the Holy Grail, structures such as the Great Pyramids, Stonehenge, Easter Island and is the knowledge that was collected in the Jewish Ark of the Covenant.
The environmental changes of Glacial Respiration determine all biological evolution and can explain why higher forms of intelligent humans developed. Further, Glacial Respiration releases the secret hidden by the Knights Templars, Masonic Order and all religions. Uncovers an advanced Blue-Blooded semi-industrial Atlantian Civilization that was built and destroyed many times over for the last million years. The book ends with an explanation of how linear western religion will be physically ended and describes the construction of the doomsday device capable of fulfilling its own self defining prophesy, “Revelations”. H2onE2 is a mind-expanding experience that stimulates the soul, instinct, intellect and is an almanac to the past, present and future of humanity. Rise, awaken and evolve into H3 human consciousness.
The discovery:
As a Professional Geologist, I attempted to link the Dust Bowl/Great Depression to a pre-glacial condition or mechanism and ended up writing the book H2onE2. I felt that there was a strong connection between the Dust Bowl and transition back into Glacial Winter. I did notice that my professors scientifically crumbled every time I mentioned the relationship. I could not go back in time or locate indisputable proof. The proof came from understanding all educational disciplines including history and theology. I soon discovered that all religious text both eastern and western continually described significant climate change conditions relating to Glacial Respiration. For years I fought off mixing science and religion until I discovered that the origins of all religions were founded or created to help humans psychologically survive the harsh earthen environment. Without reason I soon accepted that the world's complicated religions were the same. This came true and I continued to write and discover. Everything came into place as though I was unlocking a 10,000-year-old puzzle. I also realized this puzzle was opened before I discovered it, by someone else, some other group. If so, further understanding of this knowledge might be extracted from significant historical events. Lastly, this is the vital information needed to make future predictions.
Why not encourage the Ron Paul promotion? Won't he serve in the end to split votes on the right much more than on the left? Doesn't anyone else see the potential for him to be a new Perot, or an anti-Nader?
Paul and his ilk probably would end the Iraq occupation and bring home the troops. He would probably bring home the troops from all our other 173 or so bases around the world. Once they arrive on US soil, however, they would be on their own, medically and job-wise.
Whenever I come across someone who says Paul has it right, I remind them that he also believes that if there is a pot hole in the street in front of your house, you are free to grab a bucket of tarmac and fill that hole. If the water coming out of your tap is cloudy and smelly, you are free to boil it before drinking it.
fallinglady
b billy marse, orthodox science must exclude whatever cannot be empirically demonstrated and repeated; orthodox logic is not so strict, since it allows for inference and conclusions drawn from induction; and lucid philosophy might be said to be the weakest of the formal attempts to understand everything or most things. It's possible that during ancient but historical times (before, say, 700 BCE) Venus and Mars weren't all right yet, not yet in their present and apparently stable orbits. Earth's geological record has been interpreted with that possibility in view. There is too much ancient writing about active gods; too much astrological and astronomical prognostication in ancient writings, which can't be explained only by animal husbandry and agronomy -- a usual interpretation for ancient texts. You probably know about the notion that a comet or something entered the Solar System, collided with something, and out of that collision either Mars or Venus was made, or both, and their erratic orbits altered conditions on Earth for many millennia. Ancient writings recorded the near approaches but in languages which no one in modern times has been able to decipher. Ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek, e.g., are not translatable except by reasoned or philosophical guesswork. One supposes that because our modern science cannot and will not comprehend anything but a relatively stable solar system for billions of years, no academician will interpret the ancient texts as descriptions of Venus's or Mars's close approaches to Earth. Me, I have no problem with reading the Bible and especially the Hebrew Prophets as empirical observations and astronomical predictions because the Venus and Mars explanation doesn't require any supernatural belief system, plus it fits in many ways with our understanding of Earth's geological record. Like many readers, I have serious problems with those who have translated the ancient texts to conform with what their puny learning and smaller imaginations have afforded them. I'd like to see shopping malls start offering franchise opportunities for a wider variety of Weltanschauungs.
elan...interesting questions. As long as Paul refuses the idea of a third-party run, you may be right. But if he did run, he'd siphon more votes from the Democrats than from the Republicans.
I've noticed an interesting phenomenon. The trannies are big Paul supporters (proof that trannyism is NOT a liberal phenomenon). Yet they do not ask Paul to make Big Statement on whether or not he believes in trannyism.
Similarly, the progressives are real big on forcing Dems to take a stand on impeachment, but they do not want Paul to address the subject.
You give a lot of people much too much credit, as though they have analytic skills or political understanding. Most Americans have neither, and you know it. Would you consider trying an experiment this weekend while you're listening to Wagner? (Only if you have the software or know someone who does.) I have a suspicion that Ron Paul is popular because of his name combined with the trimmed-down facile homilies he delivers, that is, the key to his popularity is the simplicity he wants, and it's mirrored in his name. The experiment would be to find out how often other candidates' names are misspelled or otherwise mangled, or confused with a different candidate. (In 2003, a lot of people couldn't distinguish 'Howard Dean' from 'John Edwards' from 'Wesley Clark' because they all had first names for both names and were new to the national scene.) Yeah, it's hairbrained, but the linguistic theory is sound if you know how psycholinguistics and semiotics work like advertising and public relations firms know. Denny's will put 'Chicken Kiev' on their menu but not 'Chicken Cordon Bleu'. Dennis Kucinich would have more support if his name were Ron Paul. Does HRC's first name have one el or two? Same question about Rudy's last name, and add a q about those early vowels in his name. More people spell 'hazard' with two zeds than with one because of that dumb TV show. I'm not being facetious (but 'facetious' has all the vowels in alphabetical order, and 'facetiously' includes the 'and sometimes y' also in order -- cue Robert Klein's otherworldly falsetto track).
It can't hurt to refer to Ron Paul by is full name, Ronald Ernest Paul, for being the lone nut he really is (you know, like Lee Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, Mark David Chapman, Richard Milhous Nixon). "Ronald Ernest Paul, the lone candidate calling himself a Libertarian ..."
I may be giving Wagner a break this weekend. Back to Mahler: "Dunkel ist das Leben, ist der Tod." Matches my mood. But I have to thank you for pointing out the oddity of the "two first names" coincidence.
Also, I didn't know the "facetiously" thing...!
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