If he was Tamerlan, then we need to account for the condition of the body photographed in the morgue. Especially those bullet holes. Judge for yourself:
And here is a clearer video of the naked guy. He does look like Tamerlan, who was a boxer and thus in good shape.
Just for reference, here's a shot of Tamerlan in the ring.
Seems to me that, although Tamerlan and Naked Guy look much alike, Tamerlan had more chest hair. On the other hand, the video is not as detailed as we might like.
So...was Naked Guy the driver of the hijacked vehicle, as many claim? I don't think so.
On that day, journalists covering the rapidly breaking series of events made one point quite clear: The driver of the hijacked car was let go well before the brothers drove into Watertown. The map published here indicates that the driver was let go at a gas station some three miles to the east of the site where Naked Guy was arrested.
Moving away from the mystery of Naked Guy, we have this Buzzfeed article from the 19th:
Tamerlan Tsarnaev was fatally shot when he ran toward Watertown police officers and attempted to set off an IED that was strapped to his chest. He died soon after he arrived at Beth Israel-Deaconess Medical Center.Buzzfeed links to this NBC report published that same night. That report gives us testimony from a neighbor named Andrew Kitzenberg, who was a direct eyewitness with a fairly close view:
The dead suspect — the man in the black hat from the FBI photos — had an improvised explosive device strapped to his chest, law enforcement officials said.So here, in this early account, we have the claim that the SUV zoomed into a group of cops, although we do not have the assertion that one brother deliberately struck another. Although I don't know Kitzenberg's exact viewing location, it's a little difficult to believe that he was able to see the suspect lying on the ground yet somehow missed seeing the same guy being hit by an SUV. Perhaps some enterprising journalist can ask Mr. Kitzenberg for a follow-up interview...?
Kitzenberg said that the firefight ended when one of the shooters ran toward the Watertown officers and ultimately fell to the ground. Kitzenberg said he could not tell whether the man was tackled or had been shot.
The other drove the SUV through a line of police offcers at the end of the street, he said. A bullet from the gunbattle lodged in the wall of Kitzenberg’s apartment, he said.
Finally, the Boston Herald carried a follow-up interview with Dr. Richard Wolfe, who worked on Tamerlan:
“Our thought was ... there had been a blast injury with shrapnel,” Wolfe said.Our questions now: How did Tamerlan die? Who was Naked Guy? And if the Watertown police chief is right about one brother running down the other, why does the body have bullet holes (as evidenced by the photo and the doctor's testimony)?
When asked about reports that Tsarnaev was run over by a vehicle driven by his fleeing brother, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, Wolfe said he did not see any obvious injuries that would back up that theory.
“I certainly did not see any tire marks or the usual things we see with someone run over by a car,” he said.
19 comments:
The naked guy was not Tamerlan...he was just some guy at the wrong place at the wrong time who encountered the police. I was listening to the BPD scanner most of night, by the time they took him away in cuffs it was at least and hour or two after the original gunfight was over. One thing to keep in mind is Watertown is a very ethnic community, where it would be not uncommon to encounter people who look vaguely like these guys. Lot's of Greeks and I believe the largest population of Armenians outside Armenia & Santa Monica, CA.
Any thoughts on this one, Joseph?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/contractors-at-boston-marathon-stood-near-bomb-left-before-detonation/5332069
Scanner chatter clears the guy (IMHO) on the ground face first at Upland and Mt Auburn (funeral home sign identifies his location). Wrong place wrong time. But it is not clear if that guy is the same "Naked Guy". It is too dark to make out land marks, street signs and buildings while he is being walked to the squad car. Scanner chatter does identify an officer and suspect down and then in route to hospital but not which one. Additonal suspect is identified on the loose. Officers at Upland and Mt Auburn ask repeatedly if both suspects are in custody. In the meantime an officer checks in that the SUV is located on Spruce street and asks for back up. Thats as far as the recording goes that I had. I am inclined to attribute the confusion of this situation (only) to a fog of war mentality. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ719OmF6jQ
just re-listened to Gabes comments you posted here and he describes the exact location of the gun battle. "That" naked guy he describes must be Tamerlan. The other guy "face down" as Lenny said was not and the CNN tape identifies his location as a full three blocks away in front of Bedrosian Funeral Home. Whoa this is heavy - That means Face down man was a decoy to make us believe that the naked guy and face down guy were one and the same. And that is what was reported to us by the commentators on CNN. That he "Naked Man" was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Move along nothing to see here. Its clear then that either Nake Man and Face down man are two distinct individuals and not Tamerlan or Naked Man is Tamerlan and was dealt with elsewhere during transit to the hospital. Otherwise there would be scanner chatter talking about another wrong place wrong time individual near or in the scene of the gun battle.
The "leaked" photograph of the deceased man is not Tamerlan.
Our ears are better than fingerprints.
Look at Tamerlands ear in this photo:
http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/19/17827569-boxing-photos-of-tamerlan-tsarnaev-marathon-bombing-suspect-killed-in-firefight?lite
(2nd from bottom)
And compare it to the photo of the corpse.
coach, we do need some clarity as to the geography. I'm with you there. But I am now strongly leaning toward the conclusion that Naked Guy is NOT Tamerlan.
The video is not as clear as we would like, obviously. Still, it indicates that Naked Guy has little chest hair. And Tamerlan was a rather hirsute dude.
We still have lots of questions. WAS Tamerlan wearing an explosive vest? Did it go off? What caused the shrapnel wounds? How can the police chief say he died from a car strike when we can clearly see a bullet wound in the picture? Why didn't the eyewitness report the car strike?
And we still don't know why they killed the MIT cop! What were they doing there? If they had transport, why did they jack a car? The original ABC report that they stole a police cruiser -- where did THAT come from?
I'll begin from the last question. The scanner chatter is clear that as originally reported "BE ADVISED, ANOTHER SHOT BEING FIRED, STOLE.. IN OUR STOLEN SUV FROM THE STATE POLICE". But later the media narrative tells us they carjacked a Black Mercedes SUV in the vicinity of 3rd Street (?). I guess its possible they ditched the police vehicle and carjacked another - would have had to do it pretty quick. Media narrative then tells us they dropped the CJ'd driver off at the Shell Station at the corner of River and Memorial Highway. But not before telling him who they were, they were heading for New York and to tell the police that (what?).(Boston Globe) Why kill the cop - it doesnt make sense if your trying to get out of Dodge - ASAP. The only thing I have read about the incident is that the officer was responding to a disturbance at Building 32and Main Street on the MIT Campus. Surveillance tapes show the two Suspects walk up to the officers car and start talking to him and then one of the suspects opens fire. Again nothing from the media narrative gives us any clue what provoked that.
An eye witness came forward today and reported the police actually ran over Tamerlan. But given they may have been driving a State SUV she may not have known the brother was driving. She goes on to say that once Tamerlan went down police opened fire and let him have it. She beleives he was dead immediately thereafter. Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoXo6X7Xuog&feature=player_embedded
Vest,shrapnel? I can find no corraborative reporting on that. The women above did not mention anything about him blowing up.
I am not sure about the Naked Guy especially in light of the above - the lighting is bad and the images fleeting - I have heard the chest hair arguement - I just don't know for sure.
What I do know for sure is: Gabe is reporting that the Naked Guy is taken into custody on Dexter somewhere between Nichols and Laurel and that is where all the shooting and tossing of bombs took place. Face down guy is not the same guy because - obviously he is dressed and his location is 3 blocks away at Upland and Mt Auburn, So, who is Naked Guy -if we have an eye witness account that says Tamerlan was run over by a police vehicle (driven by ?)and shot several times at point blank by police. There is nothing on the scanner chatter that identifies another (3rd)individual. The record is open thus far.
It seems clear, however, that the CNN reporting deliberately trys to make viewers believe Naked Guy and Face Down Guy are one and the same - and that is just not possible - given the arrest location provided by Gabe.
@Harry
"Cui bono? Putin"
That's exactly what the Chechen jihadists at KavkazCenter are saying.
I find it very hard to believe these guys were emiratists.
How about the following scenario?
1) The FBI and CIA thought these guys were jihadists, or at least capable of being influenced to become such, and were eager for Tamerlan to go back to Dagestan with US assistance.
2) They weren't jihadists, but Tamerlan was a tough guy and gang-connected; and once he realised his boxing career wasn't going anywhere, he didn't say no to this kind of work. After all, he might get a US passport out of it, right?
The Youtube links don't prove what people want them to prove! So some young fight-club connected Chechen Muslims have a bit of swagger. Big fucking deal. Do bear in mind that crossing a Chechen may be somewhat less safe than crossing a Sicilian. No offence meant to anyone!
3) Tamerlan gets back to Russia and the FSB say hello.
4) Fill in the rest for yourselves.
Questions:
* if the FBI or CIA owned Tamerlan, what did they present themselves as?
* what plans did they have for his future career when he went (or they sent him) back to Dagestan?
Note: Chechens are the second biggest foreign military force in Syria after Libyans.
I have it on good authority that Tamerlan and Dzhokhar were seen on the WTC's South Tower observation deck September 10th. They left a Grandfather Clock on the elevator.
Another thing crawling in my craw...At the press conference showing the stills and video of the "backpack boys" - we are told to use only those images for indentification purposes. I recall it being said there are more, but use only these. Now later that night once the chase and the drama ensues, additonal pictures come forward that are much clearer. Some from the public, but the best from the F.B.I.. After first rejecting their Momma's between the lines contention that her boys are agents, the FBI acknowledges the boys have been monitored, interviewed, vetted without anything worth following up on being found. Here is the rub: they must have known who these guys were early on. State of the art facial recognition software would have given them dozens of near matches at the very least and then "bingo" how many look alikes live within 5 miles of the Marathon bomb sites. Why didnt they just go quietly get them? Round up all the near matches if you have to. Why this major public drama of buy in and engagement of the public attention? There was no stated,or obvious need for the way this went down. Seems like an incentive for unloved, dropped on their head at birth types to go out in a blaze of glory and hell the whole edifice of "Homeland Security" has been exposed as woefully vulnerable.
Tamerlan had explosives strapped to his chest. Suicide bombers shave their bodies.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/03/hair_today_gone_tomorrow.html
The BPD chatter about the SUV being located at Spruces Street, along with a rifle being found in the same vicinity, strongly indicates the escape route of Dzhokhar to the boat, which is located just over a quarter mile from his final hiding place in the boat on Franklin St.
The BPD chatter about the SUV being located at Spruces Street, along with a rifle being found in the same vicinity, strongly indicates the escape route of Dzhokhar to the boat, which is located just over a quarter mile from his final hiding place in the boat on Franklin St.
I am still waiting for an explanation for the unusual presence of law agencies at the marathons. Also why did they tell runner
White House spokesman Jay Carney: "We will prosecute this terrorist through our civilian system of justice."
What happened to the presumption of innocence? What happened to a defendant's right to be tried on the sole basis of evidence presented in court? Is that kind of prejudicial statement by an executive figure common in the US?
Dzhokar Tsarnayev has been both charged and brought before a court, as I understand it. (Here's what in England would be called the charge sheet.) In England any public statement that he is a terrorist, assuming he hasn't admitted being one, would now be considered a serious contempt of court.
So a weapon is a WMD solely by dint of being an IED? Natasha Lennard at Salon says the answer is yes, because this (18 USC § 2332a - Use of WMD) goes to this 18 USC § 921 - Definitions).
The relevant definition includes any gun which will expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, other than a shotgun, with a calibre of more than half an inch. That covers several makes of large-bore hunting rifle. There must be loads of nutters in the US who keep one of those.
Is there an 'abuse of process' defence here?
Isn't murdering three people, maiming many, and injuring nearly 200, in a premeditated act of terrorism, a serious enough set of offences to charge this man with?
Or is it a vile matter of the executive finding any reason they can to get him the death penalty?
When they said Iraq had WMD, did they mean bazookas and grenades?
The reports I have seen at DKos, where they are also grappling with the issue, are that naked guy was some drunk walking home from a bar. He heard the gunfire and hid in the bushes. The police saw him, thought he could be one of the bombers, had him strip to show he had no explosives, checked him out and let him go. Since he was not arrested, they can not release his name. He has not come forth, no one knows why.
Eyewitness account of the shooting of Tamerlan.
http://audio.weei.com/a/73784687/linda-calls-in-to-describe-the-scene-on-dexter-st-in-watertown.htm
I find the drunk Naked Guy a bit far fetched. I was on the scanner that night and there was nothing about that and as I said before the location of that arrest was in the middle of the firefight.
One last thought though; as evidenced by this thread, that this thing has got us tied up in knots. After standing back from it today -I get a strong sense that we may be looking at, at least two maybe three narratives intersecting, diverging, and contradicting each other. Right after the 1st Oops moment when CNN, Fox and AP incorrectly called the imminent arrest and arraignment Tuesday afternoon and everyone was back peddling - one of the commentators explained that "miscommunicatons happen when multiple agencies are involved and talking to the media all at once" yada yada yada....Granted, but I am wondering if maybe the inconsistencies, inaccuracies and gibberish being reported is due to (multiple agencies) competing agendas, points to score, scores to settle, FBI covering up for dropping the asset? That could explain some of what we are seeing without going full on conspiratorial.
"The Drunk Naked Guys" would be a great name for a rock band.
WHY can't Captcha just do the numbers the same way they do the letters, instead of using fuzzy, barely legible photos?
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