(We live in a strange world. In 2004, some called Howard Dean an anti-Semite when he called for "balance" in our attitude toward the Israeli-Palestinian problem.)
My text derived, in large part, from doc elsewhere's earlier piece, a rather innocent article on the current problems in Israel. Predictably, some readers accused her of racism.
If you now feel as though you showed up in the middle of the movie, don't worry. What follows should be comprehensible enough on its own. If confused, check out the links given above.
(To read the rest, click "Permalink" below)
Well, the ultra-annoying posts I've encountered heretofore have usually fallen into two categories: Trannies and guys telling me to buy a Mac. Both are irritants because both are incessant salesmen who keep trying to get a foot in the door even after I have clearly told them to go elsewhere.
But anon 10:58 and anon 3:53 take the cake.
The two of you talk about Jews as if they were another species, and are utterly blind and deaf to the implications of doing so -- or that you *are* doing so.Bull-fucking-SHIT.
Note that you do not cite any specific text, my suspiciously anonymous friend. You are responding to words that exist in your imagination, not on the screen.
Here is what I actually said:
What have I learned from my interactions with Jewish people?You say:
Jews are people.
I can't see them as either the Chosen or as demons. They are people, just as capable of nobility and of baseness as are any other individuals. Mark Twain once said something along these lines: "Don't talk to me about a man's race; it's enough to know that he is a man. The news can't get worse."
And yet the language used in this this blog, formerly by unirealist, and now dr. elsewhere, is patently racist to my large ears, and would be seen as such, if used (say) in a discussion of African-Americans.Racist? I'll happily apply that semi-accurate Twain quote to blacks, whites, Chinese, Jews or anyone else. Hey, why offend one when you can offend all?
People don't like Jews, as this blog clearly demonstrates.Bull-again-I-say-shit. If didn't like Jews -- which is to say, if I held any special contempt for them that outweighed my contempt for mankind in general -- why would I have befriended so many? Why would I have admired so many?
Nor do I think that Jews are disliked generally, at least here in America. Before you scoff, consider the large number of prominent Jewish figures embraced and revered by this society. From Einstein to Kubrick to Kafka to...well, I could name thousands of other names, including, I guess, Jesus: Americans read their works, talk about them in classrooms and even hang their images on our walls. In a society where Jews really were disliked, that situation simply would not happen.
You want to know what it REALLY is like to be disliked in this society? Pose as a Muslim for a day. America will take (say) a Sacha Baron Cohen to her heart, but she will never embrace any Arab performer nearly so readily. For a year after after 911, the poor Pakistani fellow working the night shift at a convenience store local to me feared that he would get beaten up just for being who he was.
THAT is "dislike," my friend.
Turn off your self-centered paranoia, see the world as it really is, and count your damn blessings.
Most Jews, if they had a choice, would not be Jews.Bullshit once more.
1. They do have a choice, at least in the area of religion. 2. I think the vast, vast majority of Jews are just fine with who they are, which is precisely as it ought to be.
Maybe you speak for yourself. If so, then all I can say is that your personal neurosis is not my problem, and is not to be ascribed to any larger group.
Most Jews do not think they are the "chosen people", and resurrecting that phrase, as if it's a Jewish patrimony and believed by Jews because it figures in bible mythology, says a lot about the speaker (what religious or national group doesn't think it's "chosen"?).All religious Jews do so think, although they have (at least in my presence) been careful to distinguish between being "chosen" and being superior. And as long as that distinction is recognized, I have no problem with the phrase, even though I don't accept the theological basis for it.
If you read my use of that phrase in context, the reference is not so much to Jewish self-identification but to Christian Zionists, who DO use the term.
Guess you missed this part:
Similarly, if you've never met any Jews, it's easy to see them as either God's impossibly noble Chosen People or as demonic Schemers Against All That Is Good. Fundamentalist Christians who live in areas of the country where Jews are rare tend to cycle (perhaps understandably) between one stereotype and the other.In Fundamentalist circles -- I've read the literature -- the phrase "chosen people" is indeed used often when shoring up support for everything Israel does. And the phrase does carry (again, in THAT literature) a hyper-romanticized aura of "specialness."
And now for the kicker:
The old canard, "Some of my best friends are Negroes" was (and still is!) used to demonstrate the speaker's innocence and purity of heart ("what me, racist?"). The few rare cases were it was actually true aren't relevant here.Christ, you missed my point entirely! My intention was to demonstrate that this shopworn and much-derided phrase is neither a canard (unless the speaker really is lying) nor condescension. All I can do is to repeat what I wrote, and hope that this time it sinks in:
Friendship, acquaintanceship, family relations -- these things do mean something. Ultimately, they may be the only antidotes for the toxin of intolerance.And that is why I said my reference to my Jewish stepfather came without apology. Y'see, for as long as I can recall, any discussion of race relations went along these lines:
SPEAKER 1 (on the attack): "You don't like Group X."
SPEAKER 2 (playing defense): "That's not true..."
SPEAKER 1: "You don't! Hell, you don't even KNOW any members of Group X..."
SPEAKER 2: "Nonsense. I've known many. I can even count Group X-ers among members of my family. Why, some of..."
SPEAKER 1: "You were about to say that some of your best friends are members of Group X. Why, you condescending bastard!"
See? Speaker 2 can't win, no matter WHAT he says.
If he says he has no Group X friends or relations, then he is damned for being isolated and ignorant. If he says he DOES have friends or relations in that category, then he is damned for being condescending.
Well, I call bullshit on that unfair conversational tactic.
I say once again that personal interaction across racial, religious and cultural divides is worthy, useful and necessary. Furthermore, in conversation or debate, it is -- at all times, under any circumstances -- perfectly legitimate for you, me, or anyone else to bring up ANY aspect of personal history.
Anyone who says otherwise can go to hell.
Oh, anon 3:53: Your comparison would be apt if Nigeria had millions of fundamentalist Christian zombies supporting every wrongheaded thing that nation did.
In my experience, African-Americans are quite realistic in their assessment of African governments. Back in the 1970s, I never encountered, in print or in person, a single black American apologist for Idi Amin. Maybe my reading wasn't wide enough back then, but I read pretty damn widely for a teen.
Sorry, but you can find LOTS of American Jews who defend the indefensible in Israel.
(Some of you may want to presume that when I wrote "LOTS," I meant "ALL." Read the previous paragraph again. And please respond only to words actually used, not to the words in your imagination.)
Has anyone tried to stop me from criticizing Israel? Not physically. The feedback can be pretty harsh. And it segues pretty quickly into the usual: "You don't like Israel because you don't like Jews."
If I say otherwise, the dialog immediately takes the familiar course outlined above -- the "Speaker 1, Speaker 2" thing.
Is the phrase "Jewish brethren" or "African Brethren" -- or "Chinese brethren" or "white brethren" or whatever -- patronizing, as our boldly anonymous critic says? Nope. Never. The very forms of the words give the lie to this idea. I suggest you look up the meaning of "pater," the Latin root of the word "patronizing." You do know the difference between a father and a brother, do you not?
"Brother," used figuratively, implies both equivalence and a certain root familial relationship -- as in, "we are all members of the human race." Got a problem with that, bub?
Besides, he also has black in-laws and he knows blacks are human, just like you or me. Yes, there are some pretty awful blacks, but they all need to be judged as individuals. That's why he's not ashamed to say his stepfather was black. The guy was a bastard, but his own mother acknowledged as much. Besides, says Commentator B, I've been to my share of Kwanzas, so I have a special understanding of blacks.Seems purty enough to me. If that really is the writer's history, why shouldn't he mention it, if he cares to do so? Why keep things hidden? Both you and I have a right to reveal as much biography as seems comfortable, for any reason that seems good to us.
"Get the drift, folks? It's not very pretty.
By the way, I never claimed to have a "special understanding" of Jews -- unless recognizing that they are neither better nor worse than anyone else counts as a "special understanding."
(I mentioned the fact that my stepfather was a bastard for a special reason: I'm preparing the audience for a nice little essay that will appear as soon as the guy leaves this mortal coil. As noted before, he is somewhat revered in his field, and I'm gonna stop the hagiographies in their tracks. And yes, I really did like his mother. How such a nice lady could give birth to a guy like that is the greatest conundrum of genetics I've ever encountered.)
You know who you are, my anonymous friend? You are Speaker 1 in the dialog above. You just LOVE that particular unfair conversational gambit. And you are royally pissed off because I made it difficult for you to use that bit of verbal jui-jitsu ever again.
Sorry, pal. Ain't gonna let you get away with it any more.
I learned a long time ago that sophists can scry racism into ANY text -- even if that text reads "I know you; you are just like me." And that is precisely what our two fearlessly anonymous friends have tried to do here, in the expectation that I would simply roll over and die.
Bull-fucking-SHIT I will!
8 comments:
Joe, at first I wasn't sure, and I'm still not positive, but I began to notice as much as a year ago or more on Liz' Blondesense site that mere mention of the "I", "J", or "Z" words (and there may be others) seemed to bring out the disinfo and misinfo trolls. Now, I don't think the trolls can monitor every blogsite, but are there computer sensors perhaps that can zero in on a keyword or keyphrase?
Lately, the folks over at the Rigorous Intuition Discussion Board have gotten into some real pissing contests about the subject, so much so about the "subject" as well as others, that I don't bother with it anymore.
For my forum discussions any more, I hang out at Signs-of-the-Times, where if you smart off, try to bee-ess people, or are just plain rude, your ass is outta there fast.
In what sense are Jews, or Jewish people, a 'group'? Also, since no good noun should ever go unverbed, what are the implications of 'grouping' people one way or another? (The second is a rhetorical question, no?)
"In what sense are Jews, or Jewish people, a 'group'?"
In this sense we derive from the third definition offered in the online dictionary:
"A number of individuals or things considered together because of similarities"
That's a pretty broad definition. Jews can be called a group. Gentiles can be called a group. Blog readers can be called a group. Former Chevy Vega Owners Who Are Still Pissed Off Because the Engine Seized can be called a group.
Now here's a word I'd like YOU to look up, Stuart: "Sophist." As in: "I learned a long time ago that sophists can scry racism into ANY text..."
Tell me what you find.
Ohhh My God!
I said it when dr elsewhere brought the subject up. If you open this can of worms, you will get all angles and then some.
I quit a site over the abuses of this subject. The discussion went into the absurd.
I could go into how I grew up with upstairs Jewish neighbors who were the nicest folks you ever had a pleasure of meeting and how I went to school with Jewish girls and how in my adult life I have had the pleasure of having freinds and clients who happened to be Jews.
But I am afraid that it will be taken as " Some of my best friends are Jewish" cliche.
I understood the first post as being a discussion of lack of media coverage over the affairs of the state of "Israel".
Israel being a country more or less accepted by the world.
The religous aspect not withstanding, it is a country of sorts with an agenda and a foreigne
policy that effects not just the US but the rest of the world.
Why do we have to bring religion or racism or anti-semitism into this discussion is beyond me.
Could it be that the angle of anti-semitism stiffles all criticism of any thing "Israel" does?
A sort of over-kill?
Does Al-Quida represent all Muslim's point of view?
Do Evangelist Christians represent how all Christains feel?
Do all Jews support the Zionist point of view?
I think not!
Buning everyone at the same bonfire is not only un-fair, it is not logical.
So, back to discussing the affairs of a little(but supported in everyway by American blindeness or lack of vision)country or state or manufactured little slice of Apartide called Israel.
The discussion is about world affairs, and the effects and agendas of politicians who can cause world disasters with a flick of a finger or a speech.
We, the people do not hate each other(regardless of race or religion). The powers that are and want to be, however would like us to be at each other's throats.
Divide and conquer they say, let them kill each other(Iraq anyone?)and they will be tired and defeated and looking for the strong man that can defend them. And we will step in and guide the coarse of progress(and rob them blind).
Divide the world into "White" and "Black" and "Yellow" and "Red" or "Christian" and "Muslim" and "Jew", and at the end you will get slaves to "Idealogy" or "Racism" or "Supremacy", just as the powers that are want!
Excuse the mis-spellings and the rants, I am tired and frustrated.
I am half jewish and half west indian. I have never been attacked for being half Jewish. I have been beaten for being "brown". I occasionally go to israel to visit my relatives. When I go, I prepare myself to experience a form of racism which is very hard to find in the US or UK these days. Its hard to find cos a) its considered unacceptable to express these views these days b) cos there are now laws against it in the UK and US. Things are different in Israel. It is not merely acceptable there, its the norm.
Incidentally, my Jewish relatives dont argue with me about this anymore. They have watched it happen to me and have had to bail me out on a number of occasions.
Dont let people lie about this. The faster this lie is exposed the better off we will all be.
mJoseph,
I know it's a little silly to post a link to a sub thread, but I have been working out some of these issues and decided to respond to a post on DU. I think you might find this colloquy interesting.
HamdenRice from DU
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=396918&mesg_id=407707
it is quite obvious to me that racism (thinking that a person of a different colour or bloodline than ourselves is inferior or “less" human and has less human potential), is rampant and always has been. The racist card is like the joker in the deck..it pops up in all of us without announcing its coming.
We are all in the process of refining our natures, personalities, compassion barometers, and opinions about our fellow man.
I am a white guy born into a white culture and raised in a rainbow society peopled by red, yellow, black white brown and now green (make room for the aliens here). By being white in this society I can look out from the vantage point (advantage point) of most accepted, most easily hired, first to be given financial raises, easiest to buy property, least likely to be a suspect in a gang rape or a CD theft (not controlled demolition Joseph so hold on to your britches),, mad a slew of other honorary titles that simply come easier is this albino culture we are all crowded into.
Some of my best friends are white people but having said that most of my albino friends are half educated shmucks and hypocrites (no lexicon here..brand new word signifying the trance state that all folks live and act in)
While snagged in this hypnocritic state we all glance at the other and size them up and the other is different than ourselves in a wide variety of ways. First there is the sex(gemder) of the "other" and if we are still sensory alert and not senile we may respond with a silent judgment of Wow! I would like to unzip my pants and have my way with her (Imale and straight) or Yikes shes too fat. Then after establishing a friendship or acquaintance with the "other" we begin the dressing down of further judgments regarding intellectual facility, hipness or not, neurotic or not and how much, pleasing upbeat personality or not, financially well heeled or not etc. and anon.
Al of these judgments go clickety click in our cranium faster than light speed.
Coupled with that plethora of prejudices is the reactions to the colour wheel and our cranial computations based on surface colour or skin colour.
It took a long time in our short American history to collectively deal with the black skinned (negro), red skinned ((Indians), off brown (jews) dark tones (dark irish and italians) then the yellow ones (chinese, japanese, and a gaggle of other asians), and in the near future the superior race of the green ones, the far more advanced soon to be perceived as saviors in pour national circus sideshow currently running amuck.
Moving on to other prejudices and biases based on mantel distinctions like those "others" that believe in controlled demolition, or communism, or sado masochism,,or nazism, or tranvestitism, or those that trough natures gimmicks dwarfs and the elderly, cleft palettes, headhunters in amazon basin, Bush men from Pawtucket, Oreos versus Hydrox, Yankees versus the Confederates, werewolves versus Satanists and other child molesters, drug runners and drug users, naked ladies versus naked men, rockets versus UFO’s and finally George Washington versus George Bush. All of these examples of the subtle syndromes that plague human nature are resolved and are reconciled in one jewish man who quoted another jewish man “there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus”
So church and anyone else that cares about transcedence of our Oh to human nature, the master of the one liner spoke
YHVH
[""In what sense are Jews, or Jewish people, a 'group'?"
In this sense we derive from the third definition offered in the online dictionary:
"A number of individuals or things considered together because of similarities"
That's a pretty broad definition. Jews can be called a group. Gentiles can be called a group. Blog readers can be called a group. Former Chevy Vega Owners Who Are Still Pissed Off Because the Engine Seized can be called a group.
Now here's a word I'd like YOU to look up, Stuart: "Sophist." As in: "I learned a long time ago that sophists can scry racism into ANY text..."
Tell me what you find.
# posted by Joseph : 9:54 PM"]
Mmm, mmm, I see a tall, mmm, dark, mmm, glass of stout in my future! Get it? It's like scrying in my beer. I wish! I also wish you had thought my question more Talmudic than sophisticated. Plus, it's not civil to insinuate something like race-bait baiting where it doesn't apply. It's funny: last week I listened to an old (pre-1966) interview with Woody Allen about comedy, and answering a question about the preponderance of Jews in the comedy field, Woody said, "... it's just something in the race, in the, uh, well it's a religion...". Editing himself there, Woody probably wondered if "race" was the politic word. O, so long after Orwell, Nixon could still manufacture a 'Silent Majority' out of the thin air he blew over TV. Later still, Gore Vidal (not a member of the Sky-God worshipping group) would scold us for turning the adjective 'homosexual' into a noun, a thing that names a thing and gives a person an identity with definable characteristics, and collectible into a group, of all things.
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