Cannonfire

Sunday, July 20, 2008

Famous last words: "We can win without them!"

This recent comment on MSNBC sums up the progblog position:

Hillary's supporters are not needed by Obama. He'll have enough votes without them. Those fat old poor white women can go pound salt.

Yep, all 18 million of 'em should just go away.

This, despite the fact that John Kerry's margin of defeat (or victory) in 2004 was razor thin. Keep in mind: At a similar point in that campaign, Kerry had a significant lead over GWB. Obi's lead over McCain has shrunk, and may soon exist only on the molecular level. In a year that should be a Dem "gimme," Obi struggles to run neck and neck.

Despite all of that, his supporters want fewer Democrats.

Why, then, does the PUMA movement arouse so much fury in Obot-land? After all, the bots spent months calling for a party purge. Even Donna Brazile said as much to a Hillary supporter, in a letter dated May 7, 2008:

Yes, please join Rush and McCain asap. The train has left. Catch it.

...Message to the base: stay home.

This bit comes from Donna's famous brouhaha with Paul Begala:

A new Democratic coalition is younger. It is more urban, as well as suburban, and we don't have to just rely on white blue-collar voters and Hispanics. We need to look at the Democratic Party, expand the party, expand the base...

Y'see, Donna and Obi have done such a marvelous job of expanding the base that they don't need the PUMAs.

So I can't understand the anti-PUMA rancor. Instead of sending us death threats, why don't the bots thank us? We simply did what we were told to do: We left. On Democratic Underground, Kos, and Huffington Post, on all the prog-blogs, the message was loud and clear:

We can win without them.

We can win without them - but only by realizing what is actually at stake, and redoubling our own efforts for grassroots fundraising, volunteering, and being steadfast about our candidate, and our campaign.

"Do you believe Obama can become President without the votes of folks who support Hillary?"

ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY!

good riddance. You *should* leave the party. And people like you.

good riddance to bad trash, as granny would say.

The numbers of hysterical, crazed old females who have emotionally latched on to Hillary is simply a phenomenon that can't be denied. I don't know what is causing this but it's REAL and can't be swept under the rug. There's a BIG bunch of unhinged, old white females, far beyond self-embarrassment, who are acting like screeching Hags for Hill.

Obama does not have a white problem, he has a backwater inbred ignorant racist appalachian hillbilly problem. And we can win without them.

Gosh, and they wonder why the Hillary voters feel insulted...

You mean old white women? Yes, I do think that Obama can win without them.

As for their “threats” not to vote for Obama; I say good rithens. Not only do I not care if these people come around to support Obama or not, I would rather these vile, narrow minded, perpetrators of hate associated with the Democratic party, or Barack Obama.

I say F*ck 'Em. If they want to split the party and go their own way then more power to them. We don't need their sour grapes. Maybe the Puma's shouldn't be in the party anymore.

Good bye, good luck, and good riddance.

Good riddance. I'd prefer working on winning back the greens.

We can win without them, and we ought to! These are the same voters (perhaps a generation removed) that Nixon's southern strategy, and Reagan announcement speech in philidelphia mississippi declaring a "return to local control", were dog-whistles too...

And they wonder why the party fractured...

The following comes from Obama's own site:

These people are not Democrats they are Hillacrats. So I encourage them to vote McCain b/c with party members who are loyal to their candidate first and party second especially when that candidate has done as much as HRC and especially when that opponent is a Republican. We are better off without them, and I could care less who doesn't agree.

This, too, comes from the official Obama site -- from a writer who insists that Hillary Clinton was "destroying" the Democratic party:

Who cares if older white women stay home? Got news for you. With the coalition Obama has put together we can win without them.

Remember the "assassination" smear?

If they are complicit in assassination tallk by their candidate, who the hell wants their votes in the first place. We can win without them. I suspect not that many will go for McCain as they threaten with a new found power they think they have and if they do, the next book out will be entitled: What Is The Matter With Feminists?

LEAVE the party and form your own party. I think that a third of the Hillary supporters will either leave the party or stay home in November which is, in the final analysis, good for the Democratic Party because it will “purge” the party of the fetters of conservatism/negativism that keeps the party in disarray.

Hillary was never more than Bush in a dress, and her supporters were never more than the George Wallace / Joe Lieberman wing of the Party with a large dash of untreated menopausal psychosis.

NEVER FORGET THAT COMMENT. NEVER FORGIVE IT.

It's not about his supporters reaching out or being kind. Hopefully, we can win without them by making sure that we register as many new voters as possible...

In part, I agree. Obots have not shown any willingness to reach out or to be kind.

What would be the point of kissing azz for some old hags/bigots? Again, they will not vote for him under any circumstance. He can win without them!!

Here's an interesting variant:

If Obama doesn't win because the party is split, racism, or whatever, then so be it.

So PUMA is all about racism. It has nothing to do with Obama's infinitude of lies, his documented ties to crooks, or the vile smear tactics of the Obots. Isn't it nice to have an all-purpose excuse?

Back to the we-don't-need-no-stinkin'-PUMAs meme:

Obama can with her supporters or without them ....they have no power ...they hold no sway ....they are meaningless ...

I'm sure the 'bitter' working class will come around.

Obama doesn't owe them anything and can win without them.

We are not going to solve these problems by pandering to fools and bigots.

Obama can win without them and then he owes them nothing.

But again, these people are, simply, Hillary Clinton fans - as in, fanatics - and are not to be confused with Democrats.

Let’s let this voting bloc leave the party once and for all.

We don't need Hillary's supporters! They can go on and vote for McCain!

NO UNITY!!!

The truth is we can win without them, but they can't win without us...

This entire struggle with the corporate wing of the Democratic party may get ugly, but it is worth the fight.

she nursed the views of these crazies....Hillary made this mess.

Ah yes. The CUTI principle: Create Unity Through Insult.

We don't need Hillary's supporters!

Hate Hillary!

Hate McCain!

We don't need Hillary's supporters!

We can win without their help!

Blue collar white folks are not TYPICAL Democrats... Obama can win without them.

if the supporters of Sen. Clinton's should leave the Dem Party they would simply bid good riddance to them.

And all you people who say you have been lifelong democrats, but if Hillary gets the nomination, you will become republicans–I say good riddance.

To the people above who are threatening to leave the party (or -- ha -- the country) if Obama's the nominee, I know I'm not the only person whose response is: GOOD RIDDANCE!

The point I want to make is that we can win without them.

Fortunately, the Democratic coalition has expanded in recent years, and, as such, we no longer have to consider pandering to the worst elements of that bloc. We can win without them, and we will...

I will not be kissing the behinds of her supporters because I believe we CAN win without them!

This was published on the official Obama site just a couple of days ago...

We can win without them.

I say better off....

These clueless idiots still think that Republicans created the PUMA movement!

...those all-important "working class Americans, white Americans" that support Clinton are nothing more than ignorant rednecks. I think we can win without them because no true democrat would vote for McCain, the ones that say they will may never have been democrats in the first place, we don't know that, they could be republican females who crossed over to vote for the female candidate.

Fair-weather Dems: Don't let the door hit you ...

This next variant originally appeared on Obama's site. It was purged, but Google has a long memory:

All I can say to these whiny losers is please vote for McCain. We don't want you!...I never felt that a bunch of uneducated mobilehome dwelling hillbillies are representative of America anyway. On your way out, please don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you!

don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Anyone who would vote for McCain, just because Hillary lost, don’t let the door hit you. The Democrats nether want nor care a shit about voters like yourself.

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out of th party.

Obama should send her packing and tell her, "Let the door hit ya' where the good Lord split ya'!"

That last one was directed at Hillary, not her supporters. Guess who published it? Josh Marshall. Later, the same author emphasized that the same sentiment applies to Hillary's 18 million supporters:

The bile of Hillary's dwindling constituency is a marvel to behold.

Again, don't let the door knob hit ya' ....

Now take your unprofessional remarks and your unprofessional wife and her unprofessional supporters and GO AWAY!

Go. The. Fuck. Away.

Note to all the whacked out Clinton supporters out there--please join the GOP immediately. I love to hear all the racist stuff from you guys too. Very enlightening. Your candidate sucks, she is a lying pro-war self-serving political hack.

A variant meme holds that PUMAs were Republicans all along -- thus, their loss should be considered no loss at all:

a lot of Hillary "supporters" in these exit polls are Republicans in disguise who voted for her because of Rush Limbaugh. They wouldn't vote for Hillary or Obama come November.

I'm sure they realize her millions of cast vote's were also partly a Rush Limbaugh gift....Many democrat's would not have voted if she were the nomination. I find it ridiculous we are still discussing her and her lousy husband. They have no ability to run anything let alone a country. The World detest's this couple with a passion...

Yeah, that Bill Clinton. He just ruined the economy. And what about all those massive protest marches against him, all throughout Europe and elsewhere? The world detested him, all right.

It's obvious that her die hard "supporters" were largely Republican operatives

Stop it, with the "healing the Democratic Party and win the general election..." B.S

You obviously have difficulty recognizing reality, just like your queen Hillary. Whether you like it or not, Hillary is despised by the majority of the nation

Uh huh. Then why does she do better than Obama against McCain, according to all available polls?

we can win without them. I think Obama puts the Dems in that position.

I don't see a "conspiracy theory" at all, just a nascent campaign to narrow party definition - the beginnings of a purge that some people would cheer.

Obama will win AR, FL, MS, NC, and many other states in the South. That’s a fact. He can win states Hillary cannot when all those ‘agents of intolerance’ stay home.

Hillary supporters, needless Democrats.

Also these Republican trolls masquerading as disaffected Hillary supporters are laughable and aren't fooling anyone.

Hillary supporters are Republican-lites to begin with. They never would have voted for a real Democrat in any case.

If some of Hillary's supporters say they won't back Obama if he is the nominee, so be it. It's their choice.

They can win without them if they increase their appeal to young people and independents which Obama has done with unprecedented success.

Uh huh. How's that attitude working out for you?

Dont worry Obama you can win WITHOUT them.

Many of these examples (and we could cite a hundred more) come from the Huffington Post. I'm toying with writing a song or a poem about dear Arianna. A sample couplet:

"And who is a Democrat? I shall define.
I've been here two hours but the party is MINE!"

Never forget: The Obots created PUMA.

Kos created it, Arianna created it, Marshall created it, Aravosis created it, their readers created it, the Obamabots created it. They knew that Obama could not win in a fair fight, so they race-baited, they smeared, they lied, they commandeered the caucus vote, they held illegal secret meetings and they rigged the DNC rules. They became, in short, Republicans.

In 2000, the Republicans told me: "Get over it." I never did. In 2004, the Republicans told me: "Get over it." I never did. In 2008, the Obots keep telling me:"Get over it." I never will.

You brought it on yourselves, Obots. After half-a-year's worth of eliminationist rhetoric and cries for a party purge, we finally left.

You brought it on yourselves. Don't you dare blame PUMA on the Republicans.

PS: I can't resist printing this example of Obot hallucination from June 6:

Clinton is a pathological liar. McBush will continue the unconstitutional wars and warrantless spying on Americans. Obama is the clear choice.

Let's talk about pathological lying, shall we...?

posted: 9:11 PM

34 COMMENTS - CLICK HERE

Comments:

On the contrary--Obama couldn't win with us.

posted by

Perry Logan : 10:08 PM

Obama people were saying the same thing during the primaries.

posted by

Anonymous : 10:21 PM

Great post. But I would change "They became, in short, Republicans." They were Republicans, parasites jumping to a new host -- the new Republican party, once they get rid of those pesky Democrats.

posted by

G. : 10:38 PM

I'm a McCain supporter and I've been following the PUMA movement with interest because I was also offended by the sexist MSM attacks on Hillary and the fact that neither Obama nor the Democratic Party establishment made any effort whatsoever to call the media on it. Obama seemed to have no problem using sexism as a weapon to get himself into power.

Since the current Democratic leaders apparently view you as expendable, I'd like to invite you to seriously consider voting for McCain. I realize that you disagree with a lot of McCain's positions but - in spite of the slanders from Team Obama - McCain really is a middle of the road person and not an extreme right winger. And he's a lot better qualified, in terms of experience and proven bipartisan leadership ability, than any other candidate in the race (I'm not counting HRC because I think she's been pushed out even if she hasn't surrendered - and although I prefer McCain, I want to say that I'm still proud of Hillary for fighting for health insurance in the 1990's when no one else was interested).

The way I see it, if McCain is elected, PUMA's will have a Democratic congress and a competent, politically moderate president who will probably be a one termer due to age. A PUMA could do worse.

So I hope you'll give it some thought. Thanks.

posted by

Cathy : 10:51 PM

I dont really have the time to comment in detail but I would really like to draw your attention to one point. I watch the betting indices quite closely, partly cos Im a gambling man, and partly cos its part of my job to handicap who will win. Over here in the UK, McCain's odds have been steadily declining. Obama's have been steadily improving. I have no idea why, but the money is steadily flowing to Obama.

Right now, McCain is nearly 3:1. Two months ago he was about 2:1. These are massive odds for a two horse race. What am I missing? Is the point that McCains base is just as fractured as Obamas?

Harry

posted by

Anonymous : 2:10 AM

Cathy, I'm sure many of us will end up voting for McCain, if it comes to that. There is still a very good possibility that Obama will implode all over the place before the convention. Then we'll see what the craven Dem party leaders decide to do about it. Probably the wrong thing, but who knows?

Whatever happens, it is pretty clear that there is no way we can let Obama become president. The democratic party would be dead and this country as we know it would never recover.

posted by

CognitiveDissonance : 2:27 AM

Normally, I find these kinds of efforts (discrediting a position/candidate by making its supporters look bad) rather trite and bogus. I mean, its easy enough to go to Free Republic or Democratic Underground and find completely insane people supporting Republican/Democratic positions with the most irrational of arguments.

But this is different -- the sheer volume of quotes, and more important the variety of sources for these quotes, is staggering.

But even more disturbing is the 'eliminationist rhetoric" found in these quotes. If these quotes were coming from Republicans talking about black voters, the Obamasphere would be all over it -- and Dave Neiwart at Orcinus would be in his glory pointing out the 'eliminationist" nature of what had become acceptable discourse throughout the 'conservative' blogosphere.

But there has been a complete lack of pushback from "responsible" progressives running (and commenting on) these sites -- and the rest of the Obamasphere. Misogyny has become so 'normative' throughout what was once the 'progressive' blogosphere that no one bats an eye when blatant sexism (not to mention ageism) is displayed.

posted by

paul lukasiak : 8:01 AM

Two points.

When you become what you say you hate, you've lost your soul. This newly created Obama Democratic Party (ODP)has no soul.

After seeing what happened to HRC I left the Democratic Party . . . and reading these comments just strengthens my desire to see that the ODP is soundly defeated in November.

Standing with me will be former Obama supporters, independents, Christian conservatives,and a host of patriot groups like the PUMA's, just to name a few!

I'm glad they need us, what say you?

posted by

sportsone234 : 9:13 AM

It'd be interesting to know the average age of the people who made these comments.

We've been told that Obama attracts supporters who are "educated people with 4 years of college or more". From where I'm standing it seems he attracts the dregs rather than the cream.
How did the myth about his "educated" supporters begin, I wonder. It must have been circulated by those who don't read the internet.

posted by

Twilight : 10:30 AM

As one of the bloggers inaccurately linked to above (the quote used was made several weeks ago in regards to Naderites leaving the party), the comments in this thread stun me. You folks sound like the kind of Democrats who elected Ronald Reagan TWICE.

Obama wasn't my first choice, but now he's the only choice unless you want more war, less "choice," and more debt to go with the hell on earth George Bush has left us.

posted by

Mark Gisleson : 6:28 PM

Mark, if I made an error -- and I DID work quickly, basically working from key words typed into Google (as you probably guessed) -- tell me which quote was yours and I'll cut it out. As another person noted, this post isn't cherry-picking -- it's an orchard. And I've scarcely exhausted the fruit, as you well know.

If you want to make your argument more persuasively, may I suggest something?

STOP INSULTING.

CONSTANT INSULTS CREATED PUMA.

I put that in all caps so you wouldn't miss the point. Here, just to make sure you get it, let me repeat it...

STOP INSULTING.

CONSTANT INSULTS CREATED PUMA.

Unfortunately, for people like you, insults come so readily that you don't even know when you are doing it.

"You folks sound like the kind of Democrats who elected Ronald Reagan TWICE."

See? That's what we call an insult.

I never voted fr a Republican in my life, thank you very much, although I plan to do so in 2008 thanks to the CONSTANT INSULTS I've received from Obama supporters.

Let me guess what you're going to say...

"It's very immature of you to make your choice based on the insults of a few..."

Don't say that. Don't say anything like it.

It's an insult.

Let me suggest an alternative strategy. It's a trick that MIGHT work...one that I have suggested in many previous posts. Unfortunately, it's a trick that most Dems would rather die -- literally DIE -- than try out:

HUMILITY.

Apologize.

Admit you fucked up.

Admit that you deliberately lied about Hillary Clinton. Admit that you ran a smear campaign during a primary. Admit that you were wrong when you called the CLintons racists. Admit that you were wrong to disparage the great job Bill Clinton did for this country and for the Democratic party. Admit that you were wrong when you repeatedly told the Clinton wing to leave the party.

Most of all, admit that this was not a problem confined "a few" people. DO NOT MINIMIZE. "A few people" did not create PUMA.

Admit that this mear camapign was a six-month barrage and a top-down strategy of the OBama campaign. It occurred with the full knowledge of Plouffe, Axelrod and Obama himself.

Offer no insults, no rationalizations, no self-justifications, no "Well, Hillary did run a poor campaign"...NONE of that.

Do not offer even a hint of ANY of that exculpatory shit. Do not try for even one second to turn the matter around.

What we need form you Obama supporters is simple: Pure, total, unadorned loss of face.

Humble pie. The eating of the crow. AND NOTHING ELSE.

Why do we need it?

Because we PUMAs are not going to vote with the people who insulted us and lied about us every day for six months.

DO NOT argue "But you SHOULD..."

FUCK "should."

"Should" plays no role here. I am telling you what IS.

And what IS, is THIS: We are not going to help those who insulted us. We are going to do everything we can to make sure McCain wins, in order to drive progressives OUT of the leadership of the Democratic party.

(If you are a newcomer here, let me repeat my definition: I am a FDR-revering LIBERAL and proud of it. I DESPISE progressives, most of whom -- Kos, Arianna, Aravosis -- are actually Libertarians in disguise.)

So that's the sitch, pal. We aren't negotiating with you. We're TELLING you.

APOLOGIZE. LOSE FACE.

Not just you. The whole lot of you, starting with Moulitsas and Dean.

You won't do it, because ego prevents. Even though that is the only tactic which could possibly bring the PUMAs back into the fold, you won't do it.

You know why? Because you don't REALLY care enough about defeating McCain. If you did, you would swallow your pride and do what needs to be done.

Your pride means more to you than winning in 2008.

For six months, people like you told us to leave the party.

I think you now have learned the true meaning of the "Pottery Barn" rule.

posted by

Joseph : 7:02 PM

Joseph, my remarks were addressed to the commenters, but more than that, you should not insult people you don't know either.

After Super Tuesday I shut down my old, modestly popular blog, because I knew that as an old school Dem, I couldn't watch the rest of the primary without trash talking Hillary. NH really opened my eyes to her Nixonian side.

So rather than trash talk her for months, I shut down my blog. Quit cold turkey. I have that much respect for the party.

This is my new blog, and I've gone out of my way not to publicize it so I could air my feelings without worrying about damaging our candidates. And I cuss a lot to keep Republicans from linking to me. I'm not connected to the MN DFL, so my words reflect only on me.

The poor sport window of gripery is rapidly coming to a close. You folks need to deal, and deal soon. Want to be a Republican? Well you sound just like the hard left Dems I was actually criticizing in my item that you linked to:

"good riddance. You *should* leave the party. And people like you."

I was speaking to a friend who was criticizing Obama. Fine before Super Tuesday, not so fine since then. Those words were not pointed at HRC supporters.

I voted for Nader in 2000, btw. I didn't think the Democrats in Congress could possibly cave to the extent that they did, enabling this sick war and our economic destruction. I learned my lesson and, after Edwards lost, I pushed for Kerry hard in 2004 despite having very lukewarm feelings about him. I would have rallied around Hillary as the nominee as well, despite everything that's happened.

Because I have chosen to be a Democrat. You have chosen to be a HIllaryite. Fine. Be one. Sen. Clinton says you should vote for Obama.

But if you can't be a good Democrat, don't be a traitor. Vote for Bob Barr, not the senile wreck with no base of support. Seriously dude, you may take offense at my having voted for Nader (once, in a state where it didn't make a difference), but what would you think of me if I said I voted for Bush?

If you were ever a real Democrat, you'll suck it up. If you can't suck it up, at least throw away your vote instead of voting for more of George Bush's insane policies.

posted by

Mark Gisleson : 7:59 PM

I really was not particulary a Hillary supporter until the Obama "surge" the one he had for himself...where he gamed the system and TOTALLY disrespected Hillary and by extension me. The DNC and all those crazy deaniacs have always irked me but I did not think they would be a part of gaming the system and stealing the candidacy. The party has gone over the left edge and is hardly recognizable as a democratic party. Those who brought the party to this should be thrown out. When they lose the election they very well may be. I would vote for McCain for that alone. Oh, and BTW I am not some "crazy old lady" although I wish I was...they have integrity and backbones.

posted by

Kateliz : 8:12 PM

This comment has been removed by the author.

posted by

Joseph : 8:20 PM

Mark, now that you have explained which quote was yours, and the context -- nope, it's staying. I did not take it out of context.

You admit to voting for Nader and yet you are lecturing ME on party loyalty? As though Dubya were more tolerable than McCain!

ANd you reveal yourself STILL as a sicko Hillary-hater. Clinton Dernagement Syndrome created PUMA and keeps it going.

I'm sorry, but Hillary really was and is 100% innocent of all -- ALL charges leveled against her in the progblogs. THe RFK smear, the NAFTA smear (which was TOTALLY Obama's wrongdoing), the "darkened video" smear, the Iraq War vote smear, the "Hillary wants to keep the war going" smear, the "Hillary the corporatist" smear, the resurrected Vince Foster smear -- any smear you name. They were all LIES.

Obama, contrast, is a serial liar. That has been proven beyond rational debate. He lied about the NAFTA backchannel to the Canadians. He lied about "barely knowing" Tony Rezko. He lied about his ties to the Illinois criminal underworld. He lied about his campaign finances. He lied about that house. He lied about FISA. He lied about opposing the Iraq war during his Senate campaign. (He never spoke up against it -- not even during his speech at the DNC. Check it out on YouTube.) He lied about being an effective community organizer.

He has ripped off the black community from the beginning. He drummed through laws which gave Blagojevich complete control over the hospital board, and then he and Blago split the "pay to play" bribes. He drummed through another law which "privatized" subsidized housing -- and you know occurred there.

The man is a LIAR and a CROOK.

He has never done a thing to help the black community or anyone else.

He has surrounded himself with Friedmanite economists -- and on foreign policy, who do we have? Zbigniew Brzezinski, the man who funded Pol Pot and Khomeini!

Obama is pure scum. In my experience, he is the single worst politician ever to call himself a Democrat -- his only competitors being the Daley family.

Even if I had not been pissed off at the way Hillary was treated, I would not vote for a scoundrel like Obama.

Mark, you could not possibly be more of an asshole.

Take that as an insult. It was meant as one. And NEVER come to this blog again.

posted by

Joseph : 8:32 PM

We fat, old, white women are happy to take our vote and go. FYI - Fat, old, white women have chosen the president in every election since women began voting. Obama doesn't stand a chance if Gramdma smells a rat. So, see you at the polls... Go McCain! PS: If you think calling white women names hurts our feelings - you're wrong. Sticks and stones.

posted by

Christine : 8:54 PM

Nice collection of the hate from the OFB bloggers. I will never click certain blogs anymore. TPM, KOS, Huff, DU, Americablog, FDL, etc, the old circle all turned out to be like the corrupt, biased MSM we railed against. Those are nothing more than hate sites now.

posted by

Bigtime : 9:15 PM

Joseph,

what about the argument about needing a Dem in the whitehouse in order to stop more appointments of ultrarightwingers to the Supreme Court?

with all this hate and rage directed against Obama and Hilary and the Dem Party in general, McCain will get elected easily.

I don't care if Obama is a scumbag as you have states in your blog several times, at a minimum he won't be appointing more Scalias\Alitos to the Supreme Court.

What's wrong with voting for Obama purely on the basis of saving the Supreme Court?

Oh and by the way, election theft alive and well in the good USofA, as recently as in the 2006 House races in which the Rethugs shaved off 4% and eliminated Tammy Duckworth's 12% lead to a minus 2%. Check out Michael Collins latest article: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0807/S00177.htm

posted by

Anonymous : 2:38 AM

Anon -- and I wish you were not anonymous -- the bots and the prog-blogmasters should have thought about all of that stuff before they (THEY THEY THEY, not us, !!THEY!!) created the rift.

There must be no forgiveness. If they get away with it this time, then they will repeat their atrocious behavior. And American politics will work like on the smear principle -- FOREVER. Smear after smear after smear, 2012, 2016, 2018...

DO you want that?

There is one and only one way to stop it: McCain must win, and the Kos Krowd must be discredited -- forever.

I simply am not going to vote with or for people who insult me. I don't care if the other guy is running on a "Let's start World War III" platform. I refuse to be made to drink another man's spit.

The kind of constant insult documented in this post was reprehensible. THEY drove me out of my party. I've been a Democrat since before Moulitsas was born -- but it's HIS party now. It belongs to him and to Stassinopoulis and Aravosis and Sullivan.

All Republicans. All Libertarians.

I'll vote Democratic again when control of the party reverts to Democrats.

posted by

Joseph : 3:14 AM

I think you people are doing everything you can to stir up trouble because if you look at the First Read site...No MSNBC staffer nor an Obama staffer said that comment. It was a comment by some person reading the column. It is an out and Out LIE to make it seem that either MSNBC or the Obama campaign said this.

Unity is the key. We should all be working toward a Democratic victory in 2008. Your candidate lost a hard fought campaign. She has joined the effort. Please stop this Don Quixote attempt to hurt our nominee. McSame is not what we need to help this country get back on its feet. The policies that Obama supports and the policies that HIllary support are very very close so we can achieve the goals we need to put this country on a solid path. You don't want to be on the wrong side of a US recovery I would think.....but your hubris may debunk my hopes. I hope you will turn away from this caustic behavior as it benefits no one, not the party, not you, not Hillary, and not the American people.

Please stop this horrible behavior.

posted by

Anonymous : 4:27 AM

Anon --

In the first place, can't you see the rules? Give a name or nick. I'll delete you next time.

How DARE an Obot speak to me of "horrible behavior?" That's like a Jack the Ripper telling a schoolchild not to cross against the light.

I display no "horrible behavior" of my own in this post. All I have done is to document the "horrible behavior" of the Obots. And everything IS documented. As one commenter put it (in another blog), this isn't cherry picking -- it's a whole fucking orchard.

Now let's talk about unity.

Obama tossed unity out the window when he relied upon a smear campaign.

Unity? How DARE you fucking Obots talk to us about "unity" when you spent month after month telling us TO LEAVE THE PARTY?

Don't claim that you didn't do it. I document it...in this very post!

And no, it was not "some" Obama supporters. We were inundated with insults, day after day. We STILL are!

And yes, Obama, Plouffe, Dean, Brazile and Axelrod had complete and total control over the smear campaign -- down to the letters printed in the blogs.

You know how I know this? Because I run a blog myself.

I also know that the "big bloggers" -- Moutitsas, Stassinopoulos, Skinner and so forth -- exercised total control over their comments. Anyone who said anything in defense of Hillary was canned.

Therefore, we must conclude that the "leave the party" comments represent the feelings of Kos, Arianna and the others. Otherwise, THOSE comments would have been censored as well.

One telephone call by Obama or Dean to any of those "big bloggers" would have changed the story:

"Look, the smears against Hillary aren't helping the party. Try to even out the tone."

That's all it would have taken.

But Obama didn't make that call. And Dean did not make that call.

Month after month passed, and the intra-party rift grew wider and wider -- yet Obama would not make the call.

OBAMA IS THEREFORE 100% RESPONSIBLE.

Responsible for every single one of the blog posts and comments quoted above.

Let me tell you something else, buddy-boy -- you don't give a shit about John McCain.

You would PREFER him to be president.

Better that outcome than to compromise the one thing you truly hold dear:

Your pride.

I keep telling you Obots. You want unity only on YOUR terms, and it ain't gonna happen. You want US to eat shit. Sorry. Unity ain't gonna happen until YOU eat shit.

STOP saying "Get over it." That phrase is an insult. Think about it: Those words have never -- ever -- had the intended effect, in the political realm or in any other realm. In fact, those words only serve to make people angry.

So why do you keep saying it? Why do you keep indulging in a self-defeating tactic?

STOP trying to scare people with talk of Roe-V-Wade.

STOP thinking that we are going to roll over just because you call John McCain "McSame." McCain is hardly the man I prefer to be president, but at least he is not a crook. Obama IS.

Yes, it IS possible to be a Democrat and to be crooked. Obama is an example of the breed.

Alas, you still don't get it.

You still don't truly understand the outrage we feel. The INSULTS that we had to bear -- day after day. The sheer FURY engendered by the Obama/Moulitsas/Marshall/Stassinopoulos smear campaigns.

You don't get it.

You think that PUMA is about fanatical loyalty to Hillary. It ain't that.

I keep telling you people -- I was never that fond of Hillary and I wish she had never run. I was an Edwards man. Biden was my second choice.

But even though I did not care that much for Hillary, the daily smears against her made me want to vomit. The more she was insulted, the more she had my sympathy.

You want to prove that you truly want unity? You want to prove that you truly want to defeat McCain?

SHOW HUMILITY. APOLOGIZE.

Do not attack.

Do not insult.

Do not minimize or rationalize the disgusting behavior of the Obots -- your smears and your death threats and your cult-like zealotry.

Do not defend yourself in any way; your behavior has been indefensible. Frankly, we have already heard everything you have to say -- so don't bother saying it.

Just lose face. Pure and simple.

Only THAT could possibly heal the rift.

But you won't do it.

Pride won't let you.

Thus, you simply do not care about unity. You do not care about defeating John McCain.

So don't you dare preach to me about unity. You Obots never gave a shit about unity.

posted by

Joseph : 5:18 AM

The Democratic Party was screwed the minute the Obama people started calling their fellow Democrats racists.

posted by

Perry Logan : 6:42 AM

"Anonymous"~

The president does not "appoint" the Supreme Court justices. The pres NOMINATES them and the sentate CONFIRMS (ot not) them.

Take your bullshit scary stories elsewhere.

posted by

Ellie : 12:52 PM

"The CUTI principle: Create Unity Through Insult."

This needs to be made into T-Shirts!

Not only am I definitely not voting for Obama, but after reading these comments at one sitting, reminds me of how much PUMA really needs to take this party back from the lunatics, so I'm actively encouraging other Dems not to vote for him! The long term probs of the party far offset any potential good Obama could bring if elected (and I doubt he would be anyway). So many of these Obots don't even know their basic history. And they just keep furthering the division. The new evil is white democratic women who support Hillary. What kind of message does this show the world? Oh yeah, Obambi had no problem dissing the PM of Germany Merkel who just happens to be a woman! So obviously he just has no respect for women at all in general.

Any potential for unity that Obama espouses is continually destroyed by Obama himself.

posted by

Anonymous : 2:38 PM

I'm the "Anonymous" one who wants the CUTI principle made into t-shirts. I am FEMBOTSFOROBAMA.

These Obamabots need to read about the privatization of public housing in Chicago. According to Obama's own admission, it was the lack of adequate housing for the poor he saw when working on the south side of Chicago that got him into politics in the first place. Since he got into politics has he helped these poor black people??? NO.

In fact, what he's done is perpetuate a program that only serves to fill the pockets of men like Rezko, while the poor blacks Obama claims to help, have been forced to live in even worse squalor (if that's possible) than they had been living in before in the public housing. And, I'm talking about the working poor African Americans, those who have jobs and families...

EVERY DAY LIVING IN UNITS WITH RATS RUNNING AROUND, SEWAGE BACKING UP INTO THEIR KITCHEN SINKS, COCKROACHES COMING OUT OF THE POWER OUTLETS, LACK OF INSULATION, WINDOWS THAT HADN'T BEEN FINISHED BEING INSTALLED. THEN THEIR COMPLAINTS TO OBAMA'S OFFICE WENT UNHEARD. THEY WERE IGNORED WHILE OBAMA'S CRONIES (I.E. REZKO) ROLLED IN THE DOUGH WHILE THEY GOT BOTH OBAMA'S STATE AND US SEN CAMPAIGNS GOING. REZKO EVEN FINANCED THE FREAKING BOOKS OBAMA WROTE. $$$$ WHICH ALLOWED OBAMA AND MICHELLE TO BUY THAT MANSION IN CHICAGO.

To me, there is nothing worse than a slumlord who gains huge while the tenants are forced to live worse than dogs. And Obama turned a blind eye to all of this. He claims innocence by saying he "didn't know." So at the minimum, Obama is guilty of not monitoring a program that his whole political career has been based upon. He is at the worst A VERY BAD MANAGER OF HIS OWN FRICKIN POLICIES.

I challenge ANY Obamabot to live in one of these units and then claim that they'd still vote for Obama.

Oh, just in case the Obamabots come up with some rationalizations for Obama's helping the slumlord behavior, I'd like them to also take into consideration that Obama hasn't even talked about these "failings" in talking about expanding this very program at the national level. Something just along the words of "I've learned from these mistakes...." would help.

Obama doesn't talk about mistakes because its not hopey-changey enough, and then of course, the man makes no mistakes!

He feels no regret, humility, or real compassion for anyone. He just cares about what helps him get to the next level, and anyone else gets thrown under the bus.

If he's so frickin proud of his heritage, why doesn't he allow his grandmother to talk to the press? Where in the heck is the real birth certificate? why does he continually disparage the very Muslim faith? Why does he still support a church that helped his pastor get an $11 million mansion in Chicago? [Can we say pay off?]

Even if I wasn't so concerned about the state of the Dem party and the utter insults directed at older white women, I still wouldn't vote for Obama just because of own his frickin record. This is a candidate that I could never support! Mainly because I don't trust his words based on his own lack of action and follow-through. Unfortunately, Obama set the election standard too high for someone with his dismal record to even hope to meet.

And I wasn't even a Hillary supporter to begin with, I was an Edwards supporter. And I still heard the amount of racist rhetoric directed to anyone who wasn't for Obama during the primaries. So basically, the racism leveled at nonObama supporters happened early and often during the primary season. Obama's own supporters made those charges. It was never about the Party, it has always been about Obama.

Although I strongly believe that Obama was set up to not win (after all the Repubs still have control over electronic voting machines), even if by some small miracle of the fates he does win POTUS, it will be really fun & interesting to witness the most disappointing candidate in history fall apart and all those Obamabots turn on him. Because Obama has promised everything to everyone and will be able to produce to nothing for no one.

posted by

Anonymous : 4:15 PM

I would never vote for Obama because I do not think he or his supporters are mature enough to apologize. I was angry when the race card got played inappropriately on the Clintons. I am tired of all the crap that the Obama's did. I have no problem voting for someone who is a true American. I will never vote for a lying racist sexist fraud.
They want UNITY but they do not know the meaning of the word UNITY. I am not a Republican I wasn't a Republican when I was knocking on doors and making phone calls not to mention donating money to losers. I had one winner in 26 years. I am sick of the Democrats. So what do I get for all this work over the years told to stay home. I was told I was no longer wanted. I may not be white but I am still a Hillary supporter and what makes everyone think its ok to attack Whites. Whites have the same rights as everyone else. I am surprised that anyone would tell 80% of this Country their votes aren't important.

posted by

Hillarysmygirl08 : 7:49 PM

This has to be the dumbest campaign I have ever seen. I have seen people tell me to stay home. I have had two Party heroes called racist and other horrible names. Now they think they can win without the traditional Dems. If the kids that were voting were smart instead of being in the bottom of their class in a party school they would know that if Obummers loses 2% of Hillary supporters then He loses as we are the real democrats. I bet he loses 60% then we will have to hear the young people complain about their God losing and blaming everyone but their own sorry selves. They will insist he can come back in 2012 and I will laugh and assure him his career is dead. Hillary will be the nominee in 2012 and unlike Obummers she will win without those little dregs on society.

posted by

Hillarysmygirl08 : 8:04 PM

"to draw your attention to one point. I watch the betting indices quite closely, partly cos Im a gambling man, and partly cos its part of my job to handicap who will win. Over here in the UK, McCain's odds have been steadily declining."

Harry,

Other than the betting indices, where are your data?

What data are the betting indices based upon??

Oh wait, you admit:

"I have no idea why, but the money is steadily flowing to Obama."

Here are some HARD DATA:

In Ohio, a key swing state, McCain is now leading:

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/ohio/election_2008_ohio_presidential_election

Do you know what a swing state is?

posted by

J. : 8:18 PM

J,

I think you may have missed the point a little. I happen to have been convinced by Joseph's points on Obama. I am not expressing a partisan position. I am noting that individuals are betting that McCain will win with hard money. It is not a debate. It is not a statistical phenomina. It is the flow of speculative money.

Of course, the money can be wrong. People make mistakes in handicapping the future. I do it all the time. However it is always instructive to know which way the money is flowing, cos frankly, the flow of money in horse races is by far the best predictor of the outcome of a horse race. If people know something they will use that information to bet on it and make money. If they are wrong they will lose money.

So, just so you can check what I say, one of the sites I bet on is called Betfair. Check the "price" of Obama vs McCain there. Obama is a massive favorite. My guess is that it reflects party allegiance at a time when the Republicans have completely screwed the economy and the two wars. However I am completely open to any other explanation. Im not telling anyone anything (other than the price). Im asking something.

What does the Iowa futures market suggest?

Harry

posted by

Anonymous : 2:41 AM

I was at the 1968 Democratic Convention week in Chicago and the dubious honor of being given a black eye by Allan Ginsberg (an accident, long arms, pointy elbows!). We argued, we screamed, we hurled insults at Yippies for their attempt to put a pig on the ballot, and we did this face to face! The police hit us with their nightsticks, we hit policemen and tried to steal their horses, they hit us back WITH their horses. But not once in that long turbulent convention week, did I hear anything like the vile, despicable, ugly comments printed in this article or to be found everyday on the pro-Obama sites, even on the Official Obama site. The difference? I don't know - cowardice comes to mind. It's so much easier to sit in a basement somewhere, adopt a user name and spew your pent up rage in anonymity, than to get up off your arse and go out and present your case to "deadenders" (with apologies to the person who spray painted 'HILLARY HAG" on my garage door in the dead of night - you did, at least, get out of the house!) I truly believe that these so called "supporters" will ensure defeat for Obama.

posted by

ex-pat : 3:11 AM

" think you may have missed the point a little."

No dude, YOU are missing the point.

Let me make myself clear, since you seem to be a bit hard of hearing.

I DO NOT DOUBT THAT THE ONLINE BETTORS ARE BETTING HEAVILY ON OBAMA. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE IOWA FUTURES MARKET SAYS.

OK? Is that clear? No? Then I'll say it again.

I ACCEPT THAT THE MONEY IS ON OBAMA.

What I question is what this is based on.

Rasmussen is a fairly reliable pollster. According to his latest polls, McCain is winning in Ohio.

Again, since you seem to be a bit slow, let me clarify what this means.

RIGHT NOW, MCCAIN IS LEADING IN A CRUCIAL SWING STATE.

That doesn't mean he's gonna win. It doesn't mean that Rasmussen's word is final. It just means that right now, McCain is more competitive than he "should" be, given the circumstances.

OK? Clear?

And also - you didn't answer my question.

What's a swing state?

posted by

J. : 11:02 AM

It occurs to me that J. may be Joseph. If that is the case then I apologise for any sharpness of tone. Clearly this is your "home" and I value reading your work. I feel better briefed for it. In fact Joseph's work was my reason for the small bet I took on McCain. So the "reason" for me is stuff like Rasmussen, or swing state polls.

My point is that I couldnt possibly "know" what other bettors are thinking. Im always afraid of assuming they are idiots. They pays their money and they take their chances. However I think they are wrong, and I think that because of Joseph's work.

So if I have offended the owner of this blog I would like to apologise. See below.

A swing state (also, battleground state or purple state) in United States presidential politics is a state in which no candidate has overwhelming support, meaning that any of the major candidates have a reasonable chance of winning the state's electoral college votes. Such states are targets of both major political parties in presidential elections, since winning these states is the best opportunity for a party to gain electoral votes. Non-swing states are sometimes called safe states, because one candidate has strong enough support that they can safely assume they will win the state's votes.

Harry

posted by

Anonymous : 1:17 PM

Harry,

This "J" is not Joseph - it's JSilverheels. Hi ho!

I'm impressed with your definition of swing state. Your attempt to relate online betting odds to the candidate's genuine electability is less impressive.

Please see Joe's (not J's!) post up-blog, wherein he discusses Obama's trouble in four key swing states where he should be drubbing John McCain now.

posted by

J. : 11:56 AM

I'll never forget the comment I read that completely turned me off the progressive blogs I had been reading for the previous 4 years: "We don't need those nasty, useless old white bitches." That was last February, and one day I just went into my Bookmarks and deleted 80% of the sites I had listed there, and started replacing them with the little spots of sanity I could find.

I always love to have the Roe v Wade argument thrown at me, by people who call me an old white bitch. It just doesn't work, because I don't have to worry about that anymore for myself, and I'm not interested in continuing a fight on behalf of people who hate me and aren't interested in their own futures. I also find it fascinating that they try to use this argument when Obama was in favor of voting to confirm Roberts, and had to be talked out of it by his political handlers.

It's interesting that the Obama followers refer to themselves as the "creative class." In reviewing the comments you culled from across the progblogs, there doesn't seem to be any indication of creativity. The comments are pretty much all the same.

I hope the youngsters get out there and take up the slack this season. A lot of us useless old hags will be missing from the phone banks. We won't be slogging door-to-door handing out literature. We won't be hosting neighborhood meet-ups. We won't be putting signs up in our yards, or sporting bumper-stickers on our cars, or organizing, sweeping up, getting coffee, or any of the petty little things that are involved in a campaign. But, things are different now, of course. The bots can sit at their keyboards and win over the voters they need without ever leaving the comfort of their home. It's a brave new world! And if their candidate loses, they can feel free to blame me all they like. I can't be more insulted than I am right now.

I do want to encourage other Democrats who are enraged at the way the party has been abused by Dean/Brazile/Kerry/Obama et al this past year to VOTE. McCain won't be my choice, but if you can stomach him, go for it, or vote Green, or Nader, or Libertarian, or whatever third party appears on your ballot. Staying home is what both parties want us to do. The fewer people vote, the easier it is for the moneyed class to exert control. Sitting on our hands should not be an option.

posted by

TLE : 1:04 AM