From its inception, the law's increased surveillance powers have been criticized by both liberals and conservatives as infringements on free speech rights and protections against unwarranted searches and seizures.
"From its inception"...?
We've certainly heard numerous libertarian arguments against the law during Obama's presidency, and even during Dubya's second term. But when the law was signed in October 2001 (a very short while after September 11), the few voices raised against it were -- as I recall -- all liberal.
In the Senate, the only vote against the Patriot Act was cast by Russ Feingold.
In the House, only three Republicans voted against the act; 211 voted in favor. 145 Democrats voted in favor, 66 voted against. Those who can honestly recall the hysteria of the times will have to admit that those 66 congressfolk showed remarkable courage.
Think back to late 2001-early 2002. Does anyone recall any major right-wing pundit making an argument against the Patriot Act? What were we hearing back then from Ann Coulter? Rush Limbaugh? The Fox team?
Here is Ann Coulter on Patriot Act opponents, from early 2003:
Manifestly, there is no civil-liberties crisis in this country. Consequently, people who claim there is must have a different goal in mind. What else can you say of such people but that they are traitors?
She pretty much spoke for the entire conservative movement when she spoke of the need "to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed too." Richard Perle called Sy Hersh a terrorist. That was the language conservatives routinely used at the time.
For a reminder of how things played out in that period, take a look at this timeline:
December 2001: In response to Democratic plans to question parts of the USA Patriot Act during a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, John Ashcroft suggests that people who disagree with the administration's anti-terrorism policies are on the side of the terrorists.
Right-wing think tanks, such as the Heritage Foundation and the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, argued in favor of the Act. Conversely, warnings against Patriot Act abuses came from the ACLU, the NAACP, the Federation of American Scientists, Amnesty International, The Electronic Frontiers foundation, Michael Moore and (once the great unpleasantness in Iraq began) a host of anti-war activists.
I've been taking a brief look at the usenet discussions of the Patriot Act between September, 2001 and March, 2002. (Usenet provides an interesting way to revisit the give-and-take of old battles.) So far, I've not found a single non-liberal voice raised against it -- with the possible exception of this guy, whose politics seem hard to classify.
Yes, you can point to conservatives who came out against this legislation eventually. But that's not what I'm talking about. The AP story spoke of the bill's inception.
The press agency's misleading rewrite of history only can aid those tea partiers who now seek to recast the Patriot Act as a liberal assault on liberty. As I've said before: History is not Calvinball. You can't make up the rules as you go along.
Not all liberals opposed the Patriot Act in 2001 (although many who voted Aye did so for fear of losing their jobs). But for the first year or two, there were no non-liberal opponents -- at least, none who came to the media's attention.
The "strange bedfellows" phenomenon did not begin until mid-2003, when some libertarian groups came out against the act. So did former Republican congressman Bob Barr (who had voted in favor of the legislation), Phyllis Schlafly and Grover Norquist (who is married to a Palestinian). To the best of my recollection, none of those people spoke up in late 2001 or early 2002.
If you can recall an exception, please correct me. But don't play any unfair games with the chronology: The key phrase here is "From its inception."
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Of course there were no such critiques of the Patriot Act coming from the right. You have nailed the Times for a blatant act of false equivalency.
They work very hard on this meme. I doubt if five minutes go by in the corporate media without someone saying "this is true of both Democrats and Republicans," and lying through their teeth by doing so.
Well, there was Ron Paul, but you already mentioned him by way of the three Republicans who voted against the act. Other than that, the conspiracy folks were all over it, of course, and as you mentioned previously a lot of them are righties of various stripes. In general though, you are absolutely correct that the overwhelming majority of opponents to it early on where Liberals and Liberal organizations.
posted by Gus : 8:08 AM
Libertarian Conservatives (whom you hate), Paleo Conservatives (whom you hate), Conspiracist Conservatives (whom you hate with a bloody passion), and Patriot/Survivalist Conservatives (whom you hate almost as much) were virtually ALL opposed to the Patriot Act -- and screamed and scried as much, from the very "inception".
You sometimes-irrational hate has, again, blinded you to history, Joseph.
Sincerely,
Your avid reader and fan (nevertheless), Andy Tyme
posted by Anonymous : 7:30 PM
Not only was the John Birch Society opposed to the Patriot Act before 9/11, they were reporting on the fact that the Hart-Rudman Commission (created in 1998 and included Newt Gingrich, CFR president Leslie Gelb, former Indiana congressman Lee Hamilton, and former Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger, author of the Patriot Act)was proposing implementing a Department of Homeland Security and the various other changes that have occurred since 9/11. http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/569
I mixed up my Schlesinger and Sensenbrenner (both James). Schlesinger is former CIA director and current Vice Chairman of the Homeland Security Advisory Council. Sensenbrenner is Author of the Patriot Act and current Chairman of the United States House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security
John Yoo, of all people, is telling some truth about the Osama Bin Laden raid.
But he also went further, suggesting that the Navy SEALs sent to Abbottabad were not given the option of taking bin Laden alive. "If they were going in with no options other than to kill [bin Laden], then I do think that's a problem -- and that's what it's starting to sound like from the information that's coming out of Washington right now."
"It does seem from the initial reports that a deliberately small force was sent in and there wasn't a lot of thought given to the idea of capturing him."
Let's draw a comparison. Khaled Sheik Mohammed, the presumed planner of the 9/11 attacks, was captured. The circumstances surrounding his capture were decidedly odd -- for one thing, he was widely reported as killed on September 11, 2002, some four months before his capture on March 1, 2003. (Also see here.) Nevertheless, the raiders on that occasion clearly wanted their man to stay alive. It is also the case that the CIA and the Pakistanis worked hand-in-hand on that occasion. At that time, it seems, no-one worried that Al Qaeda sympathizers within ISI would snitch.
So if it was possible to get KSM alive, why couldn't they grab Osama alive? Frankly, KSM seems a tougher customer -- it's not as though the guy had a history involving dialysis machines. Although reports are contradictory, there seems to have been armed resistance in 2003. By comparison, only one person at the Abbottabad compound tried to defend himself.
If it was possible for Pakistan and the U.S. to work together in 2003, why not in 2011?
Allow me to suggest one possible scenario. Let us suppose the Bin Laden daughter Safia was correct when she said that her father was captured and then executed. (Frankly, I think that's a fairly good bet.) Both the body and the post-mortum photos would provide evidence of the execution. A close-range shot leaves powder burns and other evidence.
This hypothesis would also explain the changing stories about whether Obama and Clinton watched the operation on video in real time. (I feel certain that they did.) I suspect that they realized belatedly that they would need plausible deniability if the truth of the execution ever came out: "I am shocked, shocked to learn about this. At the time, I had no idea..."
The official line still needs some straightening. At this moment, the line holds that the body was flown to the USS Carl Vinson, which was about 500 miles away. That's not within the range of a Blackhawk helicopter -- unless the chopper has external tanks, in which case it might just barely get there and back. The ship was, however, within the roughly 1,200 mile range of a Chinook.
Ah...but were Chinooks involved? The Defense Tech site (as noted in earlier posts) has said that there were two dual-rotor Chinooks as well as two Blackhawks. As near as I can tell, the official story restricts us to two Blackhawks, which may have been little-known stealth models. At this stage, I know of no eyewitness reports of Chinooks.
Incidentally, our friend Red Dragon points to this article which pretty thoroughly unravels the official story of no U.S.-Pakistan cooperation in the Osama raid. And here is the report cited:
“It’s a no-fly zone,” said a Pakistani intelligence official, referring to the area around bin Laden’s mansion and the nearby military compound. “It is impossible for U.S. helicopters to fly over there without our knowledge and permission.”
A Pakistan Air Force official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, rejected reports that U.S. special forces had jammed Pakistan’s radar system in order to circumvent the no-fly zone.
“This is totally untrue. Neither our radars were jammed nor was any scrambling of any air force plane recorded,” the official said, referring to the practice of launching aircraft in the event that the airspace has been breached.
Residents in the area confirmed that the Pakistan army appeared to have at least some knowledge of the operation well before it began. Several residents said that two hours before the United States launched its attack, Pakistani army personnel ordered them to switch off their lights inside and outside their homes and remain indoors until further notice.
“The army personnel cordoned off the entire area long before we heard the sounds of helicopters hovering over the area,” said Zulfikar Ahmed, who lives in the Abbottabad neighborhood of Bilal Town, where bin Laden’s compound is located. Locals interviewed by the BBC and several other local and international media outlets made similar statements.
“Gen. David Petraeus paid an extraordinary visit to Islamabad on April 25,” said a senior military official said. The official said Petraeus held a one-on-one meeting with Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, Pakistan’s army chief of staff, in which they discussed the details of the operation.
We also have an interesting paragraph published by the Arabic news source Asharq Alawsat:
However Abbottabad residents, speaking anonymously to Asharq Al-Awsat, claimed that Pakistani authorities warned them, prior to the beginning of the military operation, not to leave their homes and to turn off their lights. US Navy Seals carried out the operation to kill or capture Bin Laden, breaching the compound with 4 helicopters, one of which was forced to crash-land in a field nearby, reportedly due to mechanical failures
Despite the clear evidence of Pakistan/U.S. cooperation, the official story has lawmakers and pundits screaming against Pakistan. The Chicago Tribune asks: "Is Pakistan a friend?" while congressfolk are talking about aid reductions. Methinks the cover story is having some unforseen consequences -- as cover stories often do.
I think that the Pakistani officials are just dying to spill the beans as to what really happened. That is certainly one justifiable between-the-lines reading of this piece.
I believe that Osama is dead -- although I'd feel much more secure in that assessment if we had witnesses to the body who would not be open to treason charges if they told a story contrary to the official one. The main questions are:
1. Why was it necessary to execute Osama?
2. Was his location truly unknown to Pakistan?
3. If (as many believe) the location was well-known to Pakistan, how could it remain unknown to the United States? Isn't that sort of thing what we pay the NSA to find out?
4. Where was Osama Bin Laden between the invasion of Afghanistan and the building of that compound in 2005?
5. Why were so many Al Qaeda personnel allowed to escape in the first place, after the invasion of Afghanistan?
6. What secrets -- in particular, secrets about the drug trade -- did Osama Bin Laden take to the grave?
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What I don't understand while the Pakstani millitary going around ordering every one to stay home and turn off their lights didn't any one in Osama's compound get suspecious or curious of them been excluded? wasn't there any one of the neighbours slightly close to them to share that information with them?
posted by Anonymous : 3:38 AM
One of my comments here seems to have got lost. Of course the US and Pakistan knew where Osama Bin Laden was. So the question is "Why kill him now?"
The answer may relate to the audio message that he recorded in the week before he was killed.
Al-Qaeda mention this message in their response to the assassination, and say they will publish it soon.
posted by b : 7:11 AM
This for ONE example : "Pakistani army personnel ordered them to switch off their lights inside and outside their homes"- "However Abbottabad residents, speaking anonymously to Asharq Al-Awsat, claimed that Pakistani authorities warned them, prior to the beginning of the military operation, not to leave their homes and to turn off their lights" ?? First-world-inhabitants ONLY will fall to it. Why? Pakistan is third world.Nobody bothers, when mains fail. Its COMMON! So what would have been needed was just someone switching those mains of in the area..NO need for "Pakistani army personnel to order" anybody.THAT would have raised suspicion.To ad ", speaking anonymously" does make sense only,to back up that LIE. Then again, that there was a electrical generator found within the compound REALLY makes sense. Its what You need in those countries. Why don't You follow up the FACT that the compound had been under surveillance from a house nearby over a period of months? There were tools reported a decade ago, allowing for listening and looking through thicker walls than those of a "villa". Not to speak about Russian satelites able to resolve car-plates in the first golf-war hoovering over Kuwait. And so on. Anything on the above level of "information" can quietly be considered as DIS-ception. The question is WHY? As a rule of thumb in recognising what is and what is not propaganda - its the amount of detail that is being used.(to hide the gorilla in the world, that is the GHOST which is a phantom to itself, vulg.the Proletariat)
(Any news about B. spending hollyday in Paraguay?-wait for it..)
posted by Anonymous : 11:15 AM
"One of my comments here seems to have got lost. " Mine too (error 503)
posted by Anonymous : 11:50 AM
Anon @ 9:14: The "mains" fail and the lights go out then what? The locals fire up the gas lantern and go outside to see if the whole neighborhood is dark. That's what.
Oh, and the license pate reading satellite, does it upend the car to read it with laser beams?
posted by Mr. Mike : 5:06 AM
Mr.Mike :That's what. -> Fantasy!
"Oh, and ..." ->Not fantastic enough. How could anybody be so EXACTLY missing a point? (Point NOT meaning "Rabid dog".)
Fellow blogger Red Dragon offered a response to a previous post about Osama Bin Laden's daugher Safia, who claims that her father was captured alive.
Why do I find that suspicious? Coming from a "Pakistani source" I would be inclined to believe that there would be a motive for spreading this story. Wouldn't you agree Joe? As we have been told over and over again, there are elements within the ISI that are BFF's with the " Cave dwelling, Red Bearded,Dentally challenged, woman hating Virgin seekers Club for men" and would like nothing more than to see the USA with a little "Doo-Doo" on it's face.
There's something to this point of view, of course. Here is my problem:
All the Americans involved in the raid could be charged with treason if they revealed anything about the incident which goes against the wishes of the White House. Thus, any objective information about these events will have to come from others.
How can we trust the official White House line when the story has changed fundamentally? At first, we were told that Osama wielded a gun and used a woman as a human shield. Now we hear that he was unarmed and that he did not use a human shield.
Nevertheless, it is the case that we may hardly consider the other witnesses in that compound "objective." They are family members of Osama Bin Laden. Making matters worse, what they have to say (so far) comes filtered through the Pakistanis.
That said, I'm inclined to find the word of Safia credible -- if she really did say the words attributed to her. No matter who her father might have been, she's just a twelve-year-old girl. A twelve year old is perfectly capable of lying, of course -- but would a twelve year old be able to lie convincingly, under harsh interrogation lasting days?
That said, we really don't know if the words attributed to her are accurate. But consider this: Eventually -- and fairly soon -- Safia will be released. She will be free to give interviews to anyone (if her custodians permit). The Pakistan government will emerge with a blackened eye if she says that the Pakistanis put false words in her mouth.
As for Pakistan's possible animus toward the U.S. -- well, here is where the matter becomes extremely confusing. The Pakistanis seem very pissed off by some of the things being said in America right now, especially by Panetta's impolitic remarks. In earlier posts, we've made the case for the proposition that Pakistan knew about and participated in the raid. It must rankle the Pakistanis to be called incompetent by the very people they secretly helped.
There are hints that Pakistan also knew about Bin Laden's location. If so, the Americans probably also knew. I doubt that the ISI has many secrets that the NSA cannot penetrate.
The connection between the ISI and Al Qaeda primarily involved drugs. That's the factor which everyone keeps forgetting about. Yet it is key.
It should also not be forgotten that the ISI has strong links to the CIA. America was perhaps the primary market for Afghanistan's poppy product, and thus it was necessary for the Bin Laden network to maintain ties with powerful people in this country.
I haven't yet formulated a proper theory about all of this. But it seems to me that the answer to the mysteries surrounding the life and death of Osama Bin Laden may revolve around the drug connection.
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My name is Barbara O’Brien and I am a political blogger. Just had a question about your blog and couldn’t find an email—please get back to me as soon as you can (barbaraobrien(at)maacenter.org)
Thanks, Barbara
posted by Anonymous : 1:34 PM
Don't know if you've seen it already, but there are stories about (and picture of) the WH Situation Room watching the raid via live TV feed (found via Xymphora, who - so far - hasn't hypothesized Israel directly running the op with the US acting as a passive TV viewer).
Link here: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/306268 With links to other reputable sources provided therein.
I haven't followed the details & conflicting stories as closely as some, but it seems to me that there is way too much room for conspiracy theories here - as if by design. Basic things like the body being dumped at sea look like an invitation.
While the topic has become quite focused, I don't think the subtext of your posts has shifted very much since "America the Mad"
posted by Hoarseface : 2:16 PM
Addendum to my previous comment:
If the opportunities for conspiracy theorizing are intentional, we should ask: What's the misdirection? What's intended for conspiracy theory co-option? Where's the CD equivalent?
Perhaps via the lies we could surmise the truth - or it's closest approximation.
posted by Hoarseface : 2:24 PM
I truly believe that the Pakistanis and the powers that be here in these United States knew where Bin Laden was all along. He was good for business so to speak. So long as he was supposedly sneaking about caves, he was useful. Millions upon millions have been spent justifying this so-called "greatest manhunt in human history."
I believe he outlived his usefulness. I believe he was offered up as a "Good will gesture" by the Pakistanis or he was given up for some of those "Billions" we keep sending there. Either way, there is so much to this story that we will never know.
Also... I believe they, the Pakistanis, WERE involved in this "Midnight Hit!" This could not have gone down without their support...Area residents were "Advised" not to come out "BEFORE the raid began:
...."Residents in the area confirmed that the Pakistan army appeared to have at least some knowledge of the operation well before it began. Several residents said that two hours before the United States launched its attack, Pakistani army personnel ordered them to switch off their lights inside and outside their homes and remain indoors until further notice.
“The army personnel cordoned off the entire area long before we heard the sounds of helicopters hovering over the area,” said Zulfikar Ahmed, who lives in the Abbottabad neighborhood of Bilal Town, where bin Laden’s compound is located. Locals interviewed by the BBC and several other local and international media outlets made similar statements."
Funny how the Obama administration failed to divulge this part of the story. As you have said...I think the Administration tried to shield the Pakistanis from home anger but in doing so did they actually make things worse by punking the Pakistanis? Possibly but we will never know why they chose to go that route. Although we can speculate can't we?
As for Bin Laden's daughter...it will be interesting to hear what she has to say once she is out of the ISI's hands. Although he had blood on his hands, he was still HER daddy. So it will be interesting to get "her" side of what happened as she saw it in real time.
Either way, I think the truth is going to get muddled up by emotions on Bin Laden's family's part and the facts as we are being led to believe.
Here's something I found on GEO TV ( Pakistani television)....
Internal rift led to Osama killing: Saudi paper RIYADH: US troops were led to Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden by his own deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, because of a simmering internal power struggle, a Saudi newspaper reported on Thursday.
Al-Watan newspaper, quoting an unnamed "regional source," said the top two Al-Qaeda men had differences and that a courier who led US forces to bin Laden was working for Zawahiri.
The courier was a Pakistan national and not a Kuwaiti as the US suspected, Al-Watan said. The man knew he was being followed by the US military but disguised the fact.
"The Egyptian faction of Al-Qaeda is defacto running the organisation now and since he was taken ill in 2004 they have been trying to take full control," according to the paper.
It said Zawahiri's faction had persuaded bin Laden to leave tribal areas along the Afghan-Pakistan border and take shelter instead in Abbottabad near Islamabad where he was finally killed by US commandos on Monday.
With the return of an Egyptian figure in Al-Qaeda, Saif al-Adel, last autumn from Iran, the Egyptian faction had hatched a plan to dispose of Saudi-born bin Laden, according to Al-Watan. (AFP)
The story is getting interesting isn't it Joe?
btw.. Here's the link where I found this tid bit...
"SHADOWY men ordered Osama bin Laden’s neighbours to stay indoors minutes before the raid.
Residents believe the Pashtun-speaking visitors were CIA agents, recruited from Pakistan, who wanted to ensure no civilians were hurt.
Ali Bokhari, a Lincolnshire A&E doctor, originally from Abbottabad, said friends were visited in the night, adding: “Somebody came an hour before the operation started. They knocked on the door and said ‘there is going to be an operation against a drug dealer – stay inside as there is a chance of a gunfight’.”
Dr Bokhari, 34, said bin Laden’s home had also attracted many “property investors” ahead of the raid who were “very inquisitive”.
--I'm sure you've read this already joe and I don't know if The Mirror can be taken seriously but it is worth investigating. wouldn't you agree?
The internal dispute leading to bin Laden being kacked is more plausible than the fairy tales about enhanced interrogation.
Same with the Pakistani government, a faction helped us with the hope of gaining power ... or money while the other side shielded bin Laden for the same reasons.
What is so hard to figure about that?
I know, conspiracies sell advertising.
A few thoughts about the Black Hawk crash. The pilot could have fouled a part of the fuselage on the barbed wire topping the compound wall. If the disk was tipped far enough off horizontal the craft would have lost a significant amount of lift and went down since there was no room to recover. The "gun fire" that neighbors heard could have been the blades hitting the wall or some other structure.
Which leads us to the shooting, one craft is down with the crew and some of the Seals injured or worse. The locals may or may not be friendly. If some were helping on the QT it's possible the window of safety was closing and the bad guys were on the way. Last thing you need in a crowded aircraft is some nut job thrashing around while you try to secure him. Like I said, you don't take a rabid dog to the vet.
posted by Mr. Mike : 8:02 PM
Cannon - The body was dumped (probably not at sea) and no photos because forensics experts would immediately be able to tell that he had been shot by 7.62 mm rounds and not say .223 or similar. This would indicate Pakistani shooters not USA.
My guess Osama killed at least a day before. Whatever faction offed him - probably merely anti-fundamentalist, certainly not pro-USA - then notified USA so they could get the body, take credit and not, for example, carpet bomb Pakistan.
Likely an enormous power struggle going on in Pakistan now. Would not be surprised to see coup, purge, civil war, whatever in days or weeks ahead. Hours?
posted by Anonymous : 8:41 PM
Anon -- you have inside info for that (the stuff about the bullets) or is this surmise?
As I keep saying: I don't mind surmise, but let's label it.
I don't know if The Washington Post can be taken seriously but -> http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/cia-spied-on-bin-laden-from-safe-house/2011/05/05/AFXbG31F_print.html
posted by Anonymous : 6:28 AM
One of the questions I posted here before was: what are al-Qaeda saying?
They've now issued a statement, reported here. (This is assuming they are a real organisation of course!) Anyway the statement says that Osama Bin Laden recorded an audio statement a week before he was killed, and they'll release it soon.
I wonder what it will say.
There has got to be a "why now?" angle to this, because the US must have known where he was for years.
posted by b : 9:45 AM
You know, I thought Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the mastermind of 9/11? Wasn't that what we were being told not very long ago, after he was waterboarded 183 times? Now it's back to Osamma, whose been declared dead 9 times (including this recent one). Sorry, I'm just not buying this anymore with all the inconsistencies and changing stories. I think Joseph is correct though, that this was a drug related raid, and that there really was a raid. I just don't think Osamma was there, I think he died long ago. I don't, of course, know this for a fact, but there is certainly evidence that could lead one to that conclusion.
On the other hand, perhaps the impression of him being dead long ago was intended, to protect him? Truth is, we'll never know for certain. That, I suspect, was the intention all along. There are so many conflicting stories, that most people will just default to the "official" narrative (as inconsistent as that has been). It has been proven that most people defer to authority, even when they feel something is not right.
Daniel Barenboim, long a champion of peace and reconciliation in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, conducted a concert in the Gaza strip last week. Barenboim is such a decent human being -- I wish I could call him my favorite conductor. (He takes a lot of flack for conducting Wagner, yet his way with Wagner often strikes this listener as being somehow "off.".)
That said, I certainly admire his resilience in the face of horrendous, ugly attacks. This fellow calls him a "neo-fascist":
Daniel Barenboim, orchestra conductor and a leading example of an anti-semitic Jew, has just been given honorary palestinian citizenship.
For this traitorous act, taking citizenship of a non-existant nation, not to mention how he supports terrorism and racism, he should have his Israeli citizenship revoked
Israeli education minister Limor Livnat called Barenboim "A real Jew-hater, a real anti-Semite."
The "anti-Semitic Jew" canard is an utterly disingenuous manipulation trick, and an increasing number of Jews can see right through it. In a similar vein, Dubya supporters in 2003 would call you "anti-American" if you did not support the invasion of Iraq. These shoddy rhetorical devices simply won't fly anymore.
All of that said, I disagree with Barenboim on the key issue: A two-state solution is no longer viable, given Israel's indefensible history of military incursion into Lebanon. I favor a single-state solution. The idea of a "Jewish state" was always a sick and inherently racist dream. It was a racist conception in Biblical times, and it remains so today. That dream must end. The replacement must be single, secular state where all who have family roots in the land are considered citizens, and all citizens have equal rights.
A growing number of Israelis favor a single-state solution. But in America, that idea is considered unthinkable -- and those who do dare to think such thoughts are considered bigots. Why are certain concepts permitted to an Israeli but forbidden to me?
The democratization movement in the Middle East means that Israel will no longer be able to claim to be the only democracy in the region. Hell, it's not a true democracy now. The new Egypt will not deny voting rights on the basis of ethnicity.
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I agree that the two-state solution seems increasingly unlikely, and further agree that the two-state solution would preserve Israel as an religious/ethno-centric state - inherently racist. Pragmatic strategic planning on the part of true Zionists would have recognized this was the preferred solution & sought to achieve it, rather than abhor it as an affront to a broader principle.
On the other side, the one-state solution is, pragmatically, a tough swallow for Israeli citizens. They fear reprisal for the perceived crimes of the past (regardless of the merits of such perceptions).
May I suggest that we, as United States citizens, look at the dilemma Israel finds itself in as a cautionary tale for ourselves: What happens when your past becomes the shackles that prevent you from acting justly in the present?
posted by Hoarseface : 2:46 PM
"A two-state solution is no longer viable, given Israel's indefensible history of military incursion into Lebanon."
I can't completely unpack your use of the word 'viable'. It strikes me that Israeli military might and Jewish financial power can maintain the existence of the racist, ethnic-supremacist state of Israel for some time yet. Keeping Gaza as a concentration camp and Arab towns on the West Bank as something not a whole lot better, pending further massacres and expulsions. Which is the aim. Not at any time has there been actual Israeli support for a two-state solution. All 'left' or 'peacenik' factions which support the existence of the ethnic-supremacist entity, whether alongside a 'sovereign' bantustan or not, are fake. Examples of non-fakes are people like Israel Shahak and Gilad Atzmon.
Camp David meant the purchase of Egyptian placidity. Hello Sharm el-Sheikh. Nice hotels. The new Beirut? Oslo was a total fake, based around letting a few rich Palestinian Arabs have a slice of a casino in Jericho and various other business ventures.
Those who condemned Oslo at the time as fake were right, including George Habash of the PFLP. Say what you like about the PFLP, but history has shown that they were right about this.
Since then, other rich comprador Palestinian Arabs - including Abbas and other PNA cabinet members - have profited a lot from selling cement to build the apartheid wall. What nice guys!
Everyone knows this in the Middle East.
These facts about Abbas and his cronies are what made Hamas so popular. It wasn't anything to do with religion. Many Christians voted for Hamas. When Gaza is attacked - tanks and aircraft against a densely-populated urban area - pretty much everyone is with Hamas who doesn't want to put their fingers in their ears and ignore what's going on. They're completely right to be.
(The 'anarchist' material supposedly from Gaza which says 'fuck Israel, fuck Hamas' is in my opinion another fake. In present circumstances, no-one who's actually there could take that sort of shit seriously).
A two-state has always been insupportable...precisely because...
"The idea of a "Jewish state" was always a sick and inherently racist dream."
And when the dream was realised, the Jewish state was founded upon mass racist expulsions. The Zionist 'left' of the 1940s and 1950s was as fake as the Zionist 'left' today. All factions of it: kibbutzniks, whatever. 'Socialism' plus racism equals...we know what it equals.
Capitalism is inherently imperialist and has an inherent drive towards war. But it's also true that peace is preferable to capitalist war - as anyone who isn't a poser, a nutter, or an arsehole will agree. The reason why there can't be peace between the US (and its fawning dependencies such as the UK and Poland) and the Muslim world in the current epoch is largely down to Zionism.
posted by b : 2:25 AM
Hoarseface - I think by 'Israeli citizens' you mean 'Israeli Jews'. Unfair reprisals, no, but there certainly should be reparations, as well as the right of return of refugees.
Joe - the Israelis mentioned in that German article don't support a one-state solution of the kind that you and I do.
It's just fakery to muddy the waters.
"'As envisaged by the right wing, one state still means a sovereign Jewish state, but in a more complex reality (yeah right - b note), and inspired by the vision of a democratic Jewish state without an occupation and without apartheid, without fences and separations,' he added.
(Cf. a white United States but without apartheid. Any takers?)
In recent statements and articles former Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Arens and Knesseth speaker Reuven Rivlin have advocated making Israel and Palestine one state by legally incorporating the West Bank into Israel.
We are already a bi-national state and also a multicultural and multi-sector state. The minorities (Arabs) here make up 20 percent of the population - that's a fact and you can't argue with facts,' Arens said in a recent article he penned for Ha'aretz.
'Israeli sovereignty over Judea and Samaria would not be the end of the state of Israel ( well fuck me! I thought it would! - b note), nor would it mean the end of democratic governance in Israel. It would, however, pose a serious challenge to Israeli society. But that is equally true for the other options being suggested for dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict,' he added.
The truth is...the Zionist entity can only be ended by force...but no-one has presently got the force. In the meantime, those who uphold human values and oppose racism should support BDS: boycott, divestment, sanctions.
The problem facing the Alex Jonesian "fake raid" theorists is the same problem facing Obama: The witnesses.
Osama Bin Laden's daughter has claimed he was captured alive in his Pakistani hideout and then shot by U.S. special forces, it was reported today.
Arabic news network Al-Arabiya quoted 'senior Pakistani security officials' who said the 12-year-old saw her father executed and his body dragged to a helicopter.
I've seen the "captured alive" story in the British and Indian press, but not in the American press. From the Times of India:
An Arabic television station went further, saying, "a source in Pakistani security quoted the daughter of Osama bin Laden that the leader of al-Qaida was not killed inside his house, but had been arrested and was killed later".
It seems that capture was never an option. This was an execution. I think that he was killed because, if tried, he would reveal the names of his former partners in the drug trade.
Think about it: If a Navy SEAL picked off Osama Bin Laden at a distance, thinking that Bin Laden was going for a weapon, that SEAL would be famous now. His name would be released. He'd be an insta-hero. But if a captured and helpless Osama were executed at point-blank range -- well, that's a different story.
The drug angle may also explain Pakistan's involvement in this. If they allowed Osama to reside in that military community, how could they have done so without knowledge of the Americans? Was Osama, in effect, under house arrest?
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Joe, are you hinting at another Iran-Contra type deal here?
Remember that everybody in that compound is a committed terrorist, including the children. What better way to discredit the US and make us more hated than to claim bin Laden was executed.
Let's say bin Laden is captured and imprisioned, how many hostages taken for his release around the world do we put up with?
posted by Mr. Mike : 6:27 AM
Salon.com is reporting that an "anonymous source" says that only one of the people killed in the OBL raid was armed and ever fired a shot.
Here's my take: OBL had been living at that compound for a long time with Pakistani protection and felt relatively confident of his safety. This action occurred with Pakistani consent (and possibly help) and caught everyone living in the compound completely by surprise. They met no resistance from OBL, indeed they probably dragged him from his bed and shot him. Stories of an AK-47 within arm's reach, or suicide vests, are completely made up. I'll bet OBL hadn't worn a suicide vest in years.
I also wonder if one of the reasons for not releasing the photos is that it would be obvious that OBL was shot at point-blank range, which wouldn't reinforce the "defensive action" scenario.
Considering how the "official" story has changed at least 3 times now, I highly doubt this is being done to discredit the USA. I'd be quite surprised if other extremists would have demanded the release of a CIA asset like Bin Laden. I suppose though, anything is possible. Regardless, there will be many organizations using this alleged killing as justification for all sorts of things, as our own government has wasted no time in doing.
I'm still waiting for any proof at all that it was really him.
posted by Gus : 10:14 AM
An Arabic television station went further, saying, "a source in Pakistani security quoted the daughter of Osama bin Laden that the leader of al-Qaida was not killed inside his house, but had been arrested and was killed later".
Okay. So now we have Bin Laden's 12 year old daughter claiming her father was "Alive" when he was taken into custody?
Why do I find that suspicious? Coming from a "Pakistani source" I would be inclined to believe that there would be a motive for spreading this story. Wouldn't you agree Joe? As we have been told over and over again, there are elements within the ISI that are BFF's with the " Cave dwelling, Red Bearded,Dentally challenged, woman hating Virgin seekers Club for men" and would like nothing more than to see the USA with a little "Doo-Doo" on it's face. What a better way than to claim that Osama was "Brutally MURDERED by the big bad USA!"
Problem is....If he was ( and I do think he had much blood on his hands )guilty of a tenth of what he was accused of...than he should have expected the "Hit men" to come a-knockin!
Personally, I am not surprised he was "Bumped Off." I would have liked to see him on TeeVee in chains and tried in a court of law for the world to see but we all know that was never an option. As you stated above... It seems that capture was never an option. This was an execution. I think that he was killed because, if tried, he would reveal the names of his former partners in the drug trade.
Anyway....Now that Bin Laden has had his "grape" perforated, does this mean the war in Afghanistan is over? (Snark snark)
anyway...
I do find the various stories of how this all went down a bit hard to swallow and I am especially skeptical about the reports coming from "Unnamed Pakistani sources and 12 year old children."
I say: The only way to clear this mess up is to.....SHOW THE REAL TIME FOOTAGE of what actually went down!
But we all know that wont happen until sometime around 2012 when Obama will need it for his "Re-Election" campaign!!!!!!
A company in the US is paid $75,000 a month for lobbying for Pakistan and we give them billions of dollars per year in aid? WTF is with this? Let them damn company move over there and cut their aid. Damn this is just sickening to no end.
In the post below, I noted that the compound wall shown in photos of the downed helicopter does not resemble the walls seen in other (helicopter-free) shots of compound. Well, here's a non-chopper photo of the wall -- and it looks very much like the one seen in shots of the downed helicopter.
The photo is odd, nevertheless. The wall is charred -- indicating that there was an explosion. Some have scoffed at the suggestion that Americans set off bombs.
Could the SEALs have used stealth helicopters? That's the claim made here, and it is based on the difficulty of identifying the tail section seen in various photos.
Bill Sweetman, editor of Aviation Week said the pictures show a 'stealth-configuration' on the wrecked rotor housing.
This would explain why they tried to destroy it. At any rate, we can be sure now that it was not a Pakistani craft.
I'd still like to know how the thing crashed: Judging from the photos, it seems to have landed right on top of the wall, splitting the craft apart.
Incidentally, here is a first-night report from a Pakistani newspaper. This was published before it was announced that Americans had gone after Osama Bin Laden. I reproduce it in full:
Chopper crashes, three blasts heard near PMA Kakul
News Desk Monday, May 02, 2011
ABBOTTABAD: Three loud blasts were heard near the Pakistan Military Academy (PMA) Kakul Road late Sunday night and a military helicopter also crashed. Sources told Geo News that heavy firing was heard in the area before the chopper crashed.
Windowpanes of the nearby buildings and houses were smashed due to the intensity of the blasts, the sources said. Eyewitnesses said first sound of heavy firing was heard and then there was a huge blast. Fire erupted at the scene of the occurrence and according to latest reports police and fire brigade teams were rushing towards the blast scene. Security forces cordoned off the entire area and military helicopters were also hovering over the area.
Note that one sentence: "Security forces cordoned off the entire area..." This, before the fire brigade showed up.
I'd say that this story goes a long ways toward confirming the account in The Nation (the Pakistani newspaper), which said that Pakistan and the U.S. operated jointly, with the Pakistanis handling crowd control. (That article is discussed in detail below.)
I wonder if both the Pakistani and American government can continue to keep the truth of the matter under wraps?
One aspect of the tale that everyone forgets is this: Osama Bin Laden was once in control of much of the world's heroin supply. Those who worked with him in the drug trade may be glad to know that a potential squealer won't go to trial.
Update to my last comment: Looks like Reuters has removed the more-gruesome images (as well as Yet Another helicopter shot). They are still available at other sites.
Cable news is barraging us with propaganda. The Fox Newsers want everyone to believe that Bush-era torture cracked the Bin Laden case (not true) -- while Ed Schultz, I am sorry to say, acted like a smarmy salesman tonight, sounding very much like Joe Isuzu as he relentlessly pushed the Democratic brand. Well, I suppose we should expect the spinners to spin; that's their job. The current euphoria will pass and Obama's poll numbers will soon sink -- hell, 56% approval is nothing to crow about, given these circumstances.
Congressmen are calling for a reassessment of our relations with Pakistan. This troubling development is based on what may be a wrong-headed understanding of the raid. I'm writing this post to suggest an alternative scenario.
The Pakistani government, for its part, has offered pro-forma denunciations of America for conducting a military operation in their country without their knowledge. The Pakistanis claim that they had no awareness of the raid until it was a fait accompli.
What surprises me is how many people in this country, Democrats and Republicans, accept this construction on its face. Two posts down, I linked to some fascinating evidence that America and Pakistan worked hand-in-hand on this operation. Alas, those links came toward the end of a massive post, which few read in its entirety.
So let's recap.
The Nation, a leading Pakistani newspaper, offers a persuasive picture of US/Pakistani cooperation in the raid. (Again, I have added paragraph breaks for readability.)
About 200 Pakistan Army men provided ground support, top level official sources told The Nation. During the operation, four helicopters of the Pakistan Army hovered over the fortress-like hideout of al-Qaeda chief at Thanda Choh, a relatively isolated area of Abbottabad’s otherwise posh locality Bilal Town that is barely a kilometre away from the Pakistan Military Academy, Kakul.
After completing aerial assessments, the four Pakistan Army helicopters were replaced by two US helicopters, ten minutes later.
Initially, the US military personnel opened fire at the outer wall of Osama’s hideout, which was retaliated by the house inmates with heavy gunfire. After almost twenty minutes of cross-firing, the US forces directly targeted the house with sophisticated bombs, eventually killing Osama, his eight bodyguards, seven close aides and an unspecified number of family members including a young son, children and two wives.
When the residents of the area, upon hearing heavy gunshots and explosions, came out of their homes or went up to the rooftops of their houses, Pakistani soldiers in helicopters threw search lights, instructing them to stay indoors. Besides initial aerial support, the Pakistan Army provided ground support by deploying ground troops within a radius of one kilometre of the operation area.
Is this account credible?
TalkLeft, one of the few American sites (right or left) to note the account in The Nation, calls it an "alternative reality." Perhaps it is "realer" than the reality we're getting from the American media. TalkLeft makes the usual snide remarks about the "rumor mill" being in overdrive -- but isn't that a rather ethnocentric assessment? After all, when a major American newspaper quotes unnamed high-level military sources, we don't make snide comments about "the rumor mill." (Although perhaps we should.)
Consider this: Bin Laden lived within (or near) a heavily populated area. American military planners would not have wanted to carry out a raid of this sort -- it lasted over an hour -- with neighbors pouring out of their homes and wandering into a war zone. Innocent casualties would have made the administration look monstrous, especially if Osama was not in the compound. (Many news accounts have emphasized that the raiders were not 100% certain of his presence.) So it would have made sense to use Pakistani soldiers for crowd control.
A new story in the U.K.'s The Mirror confirms that the neighbors were told to stay indoors. But in this instance, the tale is "conformed" to fit the official narrative of no U.S.-Pakistan cooperation.
SHADOWY men ordered Osama bin Laden’s neighbours to stay indoors minutes before the raid.
Residents believe the Pashtun-speaking visitors were CIA agents, recruited from Pakistan, who wanted to ensure no civilians were hurt.
Ali Bokhari, a Lincolnshire A&E doctor, originally from Abbottabad, said friends were visited in the night, adding: “Somebody came an hour before the operation started.
“They knocked on the door and said ‘there is going to be an operation against a drug dealer – stay inside as there is a chance of a gunfight’.”
I wonder how many residents believed that the visitors were CIA.
Then there's the mystery of the downed helicopter. Our government says that it was an American chopper. The Nation says that it was a Pakistani helicopter. Which version is right?
From the Nation version of events:
Till Monday morning, PMA officials maintained that a Pakistan Army helicopter had crashed near Bilal Town while carrying out routine strategic exercises.
PMA stands for Pakistan Military Academy. (They have a song, and it's pretty catchy.) Bilal Town is the suburb of Abbottabad where Bin Laden lived. You may or may not want not want to read something into the use of the word "near."
Oddly enough, this story is partly confirmed by -- of all publications -- the Albuquerque Express.
The two crashes have come less than 48 hours after the death of Osama bin Laden.
Two Pakistan military aircraft have crashed in separate incidents less than 48 hours after the world's most wanted terrorist Osama bin Laden was targeted and killed at a mansion in Abbottabad, 65 kilometres north of Islamabad.
A Pakistani army helicopter crashed on Tuesday night about 30 kilomtres from Abbottabad. There were a number of casualties including at least one fatality, according to local Urdu TV channel, Samaa.
That's awfully coincidental. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist -- perish the thought! -- I should point out that, if a Pakistani helicopter did crash during the raid, the Pakistani military would have to come up with a quick cover story to explain the loss of life. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
Eyewitness Sahir Elahi, who lived yard away from Bin Laden's mansion, says that he saw no helicopter crash.
The American media has been downright strange when it comes to giving a straight story about the downing of this aircraft. Earlier tonight, I caught a cable news report which said that it came down due to an "unexpected updraft from a wall." I didn't know that hovering over a wall could bring down a Blackhawk, but apparently that event is possible.
We are now told that the helicopter was an MH-60 Blackhawk. The most in-depth account of the crash comes to us via Defense Tech, which notes that there have been no reports of American casualties -- "which is impressive given the image above."
In any case, a chopper on final approach to a raid insertion could have been forced down by small arms fire (a lucky shot to the gearbox), brownout conditions where dust kicked up from the rotor wash interfere with the pilot’s ability to see, or it could have clipped some of the nearby power lines you can see in these pictures of the site (although there don’t appear to be any downed lines) or a combination of all factors. Or maybe, it really was mechanical failure. Keep in mind the raid was conducted around 1:00 in the morning so they were using night vision goggles. This goes to show just how tough missions like this are, even for the pilots of the 160th, whose skills are legendary in the helo community. Those pilots have also had weeks, at the minimum, to practice the mission at a site that was built to reflect the compound and its environs. So they probably knew where any potential obstacles were and how to avoid them.
That article evinced some interesting commentary:
One question so far unanswered: how did four helicopters enter and exist Pakistan without alerting air defense systems? I know that twin rotor Chinooks make a lot of noise, and OBL's compound was not in the middle of nowhere like Vietnam's Son Tay prison or Desert One in Iran. Given the proximity to the Pakistani military college, I'd assume that air defense missiles were around to ward off Indian air strikes. Is it possible that the Pakistani military was told to stand down in some way?
All of those speculating on this as if this was some "hidden from Pakistanis" sort of episode are mistaken. Some simple facts are as such that had the Pakistanis wanted to stop this operation (not that they wanted to), they have enough capability to saturate the airspace in and around the region with upwards of 250-300 fighter aircraft in a very short amount of time (I have seen this during the last Indian-Pak flare up). While the USAF and USN/USMC assets can handle this threat, the conduct of a unilateral 60 minute plus operation would have become impossible in these circumstances.
The simple explanation is the correct one which is that this was a joint operation. There was no choice but to give the Paks the ability to plausibly deny their participation for fear of blowback from TTP extremists within the country.
Some of the Defense Tech commenters have expressed doubt about the identification:
Does anybody else think that the tail section does not look like an MH-60. The tail planes are canted rearwards and the MH-60's are basically square.
It's an MH-60, no doubt.
But from the looks of the tail section wreckage... It might be the angle of photo but the Horizontal Stab looks a bit small to be a UH MH 60.
Now viewing more pic,s i don't believe it was a black hawk, stabilizer is swept and tail not cantered and wide on the photo shown on other sites.
We'll have to leave that discussion for the experts. All I can do is link to this page, which shows a variety of S-60s used in covert operations. I'm guessing that the MH-60k would be a likely candidate. Correction or confirmation from those in the know would be very much welcomed. I'd also like to know what kind of choppers are used by Pakistan's elite forces.
Although (arguably) only those in the military or aerospace should play the game of "identify the chopper," everyone is qualified play the game of "identify that wall." Compare the wall in the photo above to the walls seen in other shots of the Bin Laden compound.
(Click on the image to enlarge.) To my eyes, the differences between the walls are pronounced. I've seen several photos of the downed chopper. In none of them do I see any unambiguous visual reference to the now-familiar Bin Laden compound.
That said: Our visual data is, at present, quite limited. More photographs, and more video footage from the scene, may explain what now looks like a visual anomaly.
Let's look at a final issue. What happened to Bin Laden's family?
As you know, six sons, a daughter and a wife (identified as Amal al-Saddah) were captured at the compound. They are now in Pakistani hands. To the best of my knowledge, the only published account about the actual capture is here:
The US Special Forces only took two bodies with them in the military chopper; one is said to be bin Laden’s and the other his son’s. By the time Pakistani security agencies and soldiers arrived at the spot, the US commandos were flying over the mountains in the Pakistani tribal belt, well on their way to Afghanistan.
"The" chopper? We've received varying reports as to just how many were involved. (Although many reports say that only two took part, Defense Tech speaks of an indeterminate number, including Chinooks.) But let that pass.
What concerns me here is the image of the sons of Osama Bin Laden -- completely unguarded -- just hanging around the compound for long minutes, waiting for the Pakistani military to show up. No attempt to escape.
Well, maybe they were playing Quake.
Or maybe -- just maybe -- the Pakistanis had arrived along with the Americans.
All in all, I would say that the preponderance of the evidence available at this time suggests that the government of Pakistan not only was aware of the raid, they participated in it. I may be wrong -- and of course, I'm perfectly willing to modify this view as new information comes in.
The motive for lying about Pakistani cooperation is obvious: America remains unpopular in that part of the world.
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If the US forces hadn't had some kind of foreign support, they'd have fucked it up ... by more than just the loss of one helicopter.
What's Al Qaeda saying?
How can we assess the apparent fact that Bin Laden helped Kerry in 2004 but didn't help Obama much in 2008?
If Bin Laden was protected by Pakistan, then he was also protected by the US. It's obvious that he couldn't be 'hidden' in a 'compound' in a Pakistani garrison town (as the western media keep telling us, home to an elite military academy) without US knowledge. They knew. They knew for years.
How many of those elite officers at the elite academy have US links? Then tell me the town is secure from US spying. Ditto Sandhurst or for that matter Aldershot or Ashford in the UK. (Hereford is a different matter, although they did get upset about Google spying from outside the base).
posted by b : 2:47 AM
If the US forces hadn't had some kind of foreign support, they'd have fucked it up ... by more than just the loss of one helicopter. ... and I'm the Queen of England. They aren't about to repeat the Iranian hostage raid fiasco.
Did it ever occur to some of these conservative lunk heads that the Pakistani government and military is made up of factions that favor Islamic extremism and those with a moderate sectarian outlook. Could it be that part of the planning was waiting until those sympathetic to removing terrorists were in positions to allow us to carry out the raids unimpeded?
Paki troops could have been told it was a drug raid. Same as the neighbors. With a nod and a wink.
Ya gotta give props to Obama and Hillary that they went about business as usual if indeed they knew about this since last August.
posted by Mr. Mike : 6:35 AM
Jalopnik (yeah, a car site) is saying the downed chopper is a "stealth" chopper. (look at the relative smoothness of the surfaces, like a drone)
I do believe Pakistan was "told" at the last minute. If it's believed people in their intelligence service was giving bin laden help.
If there were four Pakistani helicopters hovering over Abbottabad then the Twitter guy somehow didn't hear them. He heard a helicopter around 1 am and then he mentioned a blast which might be a crash or a rocket or bomb attack against the walls or maybe even the helicopter being destroyed after malfunctioning. Probably not a crash because he said it shook windows. After the blast he didn't hear any more helicopters.
Later: "the few people online at this time of the night are saying one of the copters was not Pakistani..."
"people are saying it was not a technical fault and it was shot down. I heard it CIRCLE 3-4 times above, sounded purposeful."
"Two helicpoters, one down, could actually be the training accident scenario they're saying it was >> http://bit.ly/ioGE6O"
"A Major of the #Pakistan #Army's 19 FF, Platoon CO says incident at #Abbottabad where #helicopter crashed is accidental and not an "attack"
It should be noted that he has people placing the crash at the military academy. http://on.fb.me/khjf34
The next day he says, "Report from a taxi driver: The army has cordoned off the crash area and is conducting door-to-door search in the surrounding." Unfortunately Twitter doesn't give timestamps, only the day.
posted by Eric : 1:34 PM
Hey Mr Mike, I'm no conservative... I hope you don't think the most recent fuck-up by US special forces was in 1980.
I swear if Obama turned water into wine his critics would accuse him of being an alcoholic.
Of course, the Republicans will treat any Democratic president that way, even a sell-out like Obama.
By the time summer rolls around, bin Laden's death will be a distant memory, but the unemployment rate and gas prices will still be here, fresh in our minds.
What will Democrats have to say?
I hope they'll say that they need a Democratic president who acts like a Democrat.
Incidentally: I don't care what any of my readers have to say. Sarah Palin was vile and unforgivable when she gave credit for the raid to Bush, not Obama.
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That line is a rip-off of one from Lyndon Johnson: If one morning I walked on top of the water across the Potomac River, the headline that afternoon would read: "President Can't Swim."
posted by Eric : 3:03 PM
The crap is swirling around on AM talk radio like poop in a flushed toilet.
Somebody should ask Sarah Palin why her hero didn't finish the job in Afghanistan before going into Iraq. Or was dick Cheney afraid somebody would beat him to the oil contracts?
Why am I not surprised about how low or vile republicans can get?
posted by Mr. Mike : 7:42 PM
I have to agree with you about Palin.
Unfortunately, it says alot about us, as a people here in these United States, that someone as odious as she can be taken as a serious "Thinker!"
The Bin Laden mysteries: Pakistan's role (updated)
Many questions surround the raid that killed Osama Bin Laden. Foreign sources are giving accounts of the raid -- and of Pakistan's role -- which differ markedly from the version prepared for U.S. consumption.
Some of this material is rather disturbing...
Update: Was Osama's wife killed or not? Many news reports said that a woman, presumed to be Osama's wife, was killed after he tried to use her as a human shield. See here...
A White House spokesman last night revealed Bin Laden tried to use his wife as a human shield when US Navy SEALs stormed his compound.
But a bullet to the head ended the 10-year hunt for the 9/11 monster. His wife was killed too.
But this AP video (scroll down) tells a very different story. In essence, the video claims that another woman was killed in the raid -- and that Osama's wife identified him after death! (No-one has spoken of more than one wife being present.) Another White House official has confirmed that the slain woman was not Bin Laden's wife.
Did the Pakistani government know about Bin Laden's location? A lot of people are saying that they had to have known all along.
Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, hinted that the Pakistani state itself was complicit in sheltering the terrorist leader, saying Bin Laden had "hidden himself in the military bases of Abbottabad".
Ironically, only 10 days ago Pakistan's army chief addressed cadets at that town's military academy – the equivalent of Sandhurst in the UK or West Point in the US – claiming the army had broken the back of militants linked to al-Qaida and the Taliban.
Bin Laden was about half a mile away, living large. The Telegraph says that Wikileaks releases reveal that Pakistani services protected top Al Qaeda personnel living in that country
American diplomats were told that one of the key reasons why they had failed to find bin Laden was that Pakistan’s security services tipped him off whenever US troops approached.
Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISID) also allegedly smuggled al-Qaeda terrorists through airport security to help them avoid capture and sent a unit into Afghanistan to fight alongside the Taliban.
“Pakistan has found itself in quite the embarrassing situation. Whilst we have been allies of the US, we have been very trying partners, picking and choosing the militants we wanted to root out and the ones we wanted to protect,” the Daily Times said.
This writer for Dawn reminds us that Pakistani officials routinely became infuriated whenever anyone suggested that Osama Bin Laden was in Pakistan.
Why, yours truly has been called a traitor deserving of death when I suggested that only given what the establishment itself told us about Osama’s failing kidneys and need for regular dialysis there was no way he was living in a cave on some remote mountain. Why indeed, did the Commando puff out his chest and glare at Hamid Karzai when the Afghan president suggested that Al Qaeda’s top leadership was hiding in Pakistan? Why the stout denial all these years?
Actually, we had a similar situation in this country. The official line placed Osama Bin Laden in a wild, un-policed territory -- and anyone who suggested otherwise was considered something of an oddball.
Did Bush know about Osama's location in 2005? I seem to be the only one who recalls that former CIA chief Porter Goss once cryptically remarked that he had an "excellent idea" about Osama's location. Said Porter, back in 2005:
But when you go to the very difficult question of dealing with sanctuaries in sovereign states, you're dealing with a problem of our sense of international obligation, fair play.
In light of recent events, Goss's statement indicates that a similar raid could have been carried out five or six years ago.
Has capturing/killing Osama Bin Laden always been a political problem, not an intelligence problem? Precisely what has changed, politically?
Did Pakistan cooperate with the American raid? Many articles in the Western press indicate that the American team went to great lengths to keep their operations a complete secret from the Pakistanis.
How did the helos elude the Pakistani air defense network? Did they spoof transponder codes? Were they painted and tricked out with Pakistan Air Force equipment? If so -- and we may never know -- two other JSOC units, the Technical Application Programs Office and the Aviation Technology Evaluation Group, were responsible. These truly are the silent squirrels -- never getting public credit and not caring one whit.
When one encounters a passage like this, one does not have to squint very hard to read between the lines. Obviously, Ambinder is here more-or-less admitting that he has been told that transponder codes were spoofed. Just as obviously, he has been told not to say so directly.
Okay. But why not say so directly? Why the wink wink, nudge nudge?
In Pakistan, many believe that their government was complicit. Indeed, this seems to be the question over there.
Dawn said the operation raises a slew of questions about the level of cooperation with Pakistani intelligence and the military.
“Were they taken into confidence? If so, at what point? Were they consulted or simply informed? Did they play any role in the operation?”
Forgive the long quotation, but this one is definitely worth reading. (So don't skim!) I'm adding paragraph breaks to increase readability:
About 200 Pakistan Army men provided ground support, top level official sources told The Nation. During the operation, four helicopters of the Pakistan Army hovered over the fortress-like hideout of al-Qaeda chief at Thanda Choh, a relatively isolated area of Abbottabad’s otherwise posh locality Bilal Town that is barely a kilometre away from the Pakistan Military Academy, Kakul.
After completing aerial assessments, the four Pakistan Army helicopters were replaced by two US helicopters, ten minutes later.
Initially, the US military personnel opened fire at the outer wall of Osama’s hideout, which was retaliated by the house inmates with heavy gunfire. After almost twenty minutes of cross-firing, the US forces directly targeted the house with sophisticated bombs, eventually killing Osama, his eight bodyguards, seven close aides and an unspecified number of family members including a young son, children and two wives.
When the residents of the area, upon hearing heavy gunshots and explosions, came out of their homes or went up to the rooftops of their houses, Pakistani soldiers in helicopters threw search lights, instructing them to stay indoors. Besides initial aerial support, the Pakistan Army provided ground support by deploying ground troops within a radius of one kilometre of the operation area.
That's not the way they're telling the story in the U.S. media!
If the cooperation was that close, then obviously there was no need to spoof transponder codes. Which means that someone lied to Ambinder.
Did a helicopter crash? There have been widespread reports of a crash, and even grainy video footage of a burning helicopter. There are conflicting accounts as to whether gunfire from the compound brought the chopper down.
The above-quoted story from the Pakistan Defence Blog says that it was a Pakistani helicopter that crashed. That possibility has been kept out of the U.S. press, which is hewing to the line that Pakistan was kept entirely in the dark about the operation until after the fact.
Meanwhile, Sahir Elahi, an eyewitness who lives a few yards from the place where the operation took place, doubted if any helicopter had crashed. “We were the first to reach the spot – by that time the security forces had not cordoned off the area. The wreckage of any helicopter was nowhere to be seen. I think it was a bomb that was dropped by the US forces,” he said.
(Emphases added.) This is all very strange. How could a close neighbor, on the scene at that early stage, miss a thing like a helicopter crash?
But if there was no crash, then why on earth would so many accounts speak of one? I can see no reason to fib about such a thing.
Unless...unless it really was a Pakistani chopper that went down -- not on the scene of the raid, but some ways away. The fib was motivated by American determination to keep Pakistan's part of the operation secret.
So far, that's the only theory that seems to cover the facts.
Update: More on the chopper crash. The AP video referenced above gives us a photo of the crashed chopper, identified as American. If we are to believe this story, then the Americans evacuated their personnel -- and the captured members of Osama's entrouage, and the Bin Laden body -- in but one helicopter.
That doesn't seem terribly likely to me.
Perhaps this photo will help us identify just where the helicopter went down, and whether it is Pakistani or American.
What about the missing years? It seems that Osama moved into this residence in 2006. Where was he before?
Is there a photo? Dawn says that photographic evidence of Osama's corpse exists -- and this isn't the hoax photo discussed earlier.
Still-secret photos of the dead Osama bin Laden show a precision kill shot above his left eye, a US official said...
The administration weighed whether to release photos of bin Laden’s corpse and video of his swift burial at sea. Officials were reluctant to inflame Islamic sentiment by showing graphic images of the body. But they were also eager to address the mythology already building in Pakistan and beyond that bin Laden was somehow still alive.
US officials say the photographic evidence shows bin Laden was shot above his left eye, blowing away part of his skull.
This is ridiculous. We've all seen brutal and disturbing photographs of Iraqi corpses. We recall the video record of Saddam Hussein's execution. We also recall the videos (some of them questioned) of Al Qaeda personnel beheading Nick Berg and other Americans. Suddenly, the American government is acting squeamish about Osama Bin Laden?
It doesn't make sense. Not to me, at least.
I'll have more, later on today -- including a look at some of the wilder theories offered by Alex Jones and the "deathers." As always, we can count on Alex to bring discredit to anyone asking questions of authority.
It may have been those very rumors [of Osama's death years ago] that led Obama to pass up an opportunity to bomb bin Laden's compound. As ABC News' Jake Tapper reported earlier today, Obama recognized that kind of destruction would leave no trace of bin Laden's death.
Instead, Obama opted for a far more difficult mission with a Navy SEAL team...
Ah. So the administration passes up the bombing scenario and goes with a more dangerous raid scenario, because they want to make sure that they have an identifiable body. They need the body to scotch rumors spread by conspiracy theorists. And then what do they do? They dump the body into the ocean!
Aside from the death of bin Laden, when will you fulfill your obligation on Kickstarter.com on the Chalice Project? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/projectchalice/the-chalice-project
you promised artistic materials to 61 people, the total of the funds being $2,879. It has been 5 months since the project was funded, and we have not seen the promised materials. When do you anticipate fulfilling this obligation? By contract law we should either receive the products, or be issued proper refund. All of us who backed the Chalice Project would appreciate your returning to the project in either form. thank you.
posted by Anonymous : 4:24 AM
I've explained that earlier. There is nothing I would like more. Relocating took more than I thought -- pretty much that whole amount -- and I still have not recovered the hard drive.
There is a good possibility that this will happen soon. It's a tough economy, and it's harder than ever for someone with my skill set to make money on this coast than on the other one. But I still have a project coming up which should pay for the recovery.
After that, I plan to be a "kept man," making my ladyfriend go to work while I sit home and finish that project.
There was no time limit in the contract, thank God. But again -- I want nothing more than to get back to it. Believe me, better THAT then doing the crap I've had to do to make ends meet.
This bin Laden stuff will sort itself out eventually. Once the details of the planning and execution of the mission (both political and logistical) become apparent, people will lay off Bill Clinton for failing to get him.
" Believe me, better THAT then doing the crap I've had to do to make ends meet"
Doing design work for Obama re-election campaign posters?
posted by Mr. Mike : 7:35 AM
I think we may have a tie in with the birth certificate. It was puzzling why Obama choose to release his birth certificate when he did. After he did, he and our corporate owned media immediately used the occasion to deride the birthers as the lunatic fringe (they are, but why wait so long to show it). Despite Obama previous propensity to lie, he now has immediate credibility, even with people on the left who know that he has been lying to them on real issues. Now anybody who questions the official version of events on the Osama killing are immediately identified with the birthers. I have had people send me various photo shop pictures (jokes) using the Osama killing to identify people opposed to Obama as birthers. Funny thing is that the metadata on these photos seem to lack a creation or modification time. Most photoshop pictures usually have some date identifiers. Where the pictures created and then spread on the internet for the specific purpose of ridiculing Obama opponents by identifying them with the birthers? My view is that we knew where Osama was at all times. The idea that the Pakistani military or intelligence knew where is was, but we didn't doesn't fly. But for the U.S. and its money, the Pakistani m/i would resemble Bangladesh. They are our subsidiary. My guess is that Osama was in poor health and about to die. Better to stage a killing and get some political legs out of it, rather than just let him die. It would also explain the quick dumping of the body.
posted by boilermaker : 8:41 AM
Thanks for the succinct and thought-provoking update. I'm not at all surprised that the official "surgical strike by our special ops heroes" narrative is starting to become a little unraveled. Sometimes they just don't know when to quit: the "OBL used his wife as a human shield" detail was an obvious and clumsy bit of propaganda.
posted by Lea : 9:27 AM
"It may have been those very rumors [of Obama's death years ago]"
You may want to correct this; I know it's hard to keep the two straight...
Peg
posted by Anonymous : 11:14 AM
Thanks, Peg. I really must have been short a few hours of sleep. The correction has been made.
Does it all make sense? Sure, as long as you assume every word out of their stinking mouths is a goddam lie. Who's shooting them supposedly watching the video? Who did makeup and wardrobe? Set design? Oh, look, there's Obama looking professorial. Gee, ya think that'll appear in campaign commercials?
Six inside witnesses. As expected, many bloggers are wondering about "wag the dog" scenarios. (Classical music buffs may prefer to call it a "Lieutenant Kijé" scenario.) The primary evidence against all "fake raid" theories is the report that six of Bin Laden's sons were nabbed alive. If this whole thing were a hoax, then official accounts probably would not have included that detail.
Eventually, someone is going to interview one or more of those six.
Who was that woman? Here's another detail which tells me that the raid really did occur as described: One of the bodies was that of a woman (perhaps Osama's wife) being used as a human shield. When you think about it, her death does not exactly redound to the credit of the SEAL team.
We've entered a grim world indeed when the old "Back off coppers, or the dame gets it" ploy results only in a hail of gunfire.
On the other hand... We have a fake photograph alleged to be that of Osama Bin Laden. Who engineered this con, and why? Was the photo prepared before the raid, or after?
The photo was published by a number of news agencies shortly after the raid. This fact tells me that the job was not a simple matter of hijinx perpetrated by a snickering civilian Photoshopper. The parties responsible for this hoax appear to have had serious journalism connections.
I consider the fake photo worthy of investigation. Don't let this mystery slide by.
When did the raid take place? Officially, Osama Bin Laden died on May 2. At least, that's what Wikipedia says. An on-site Twitter user confirms this time period. But there are rumors that he was killed earlier, perhaps on Friday.
The announcement was withheld in order to pose no conflict with coverage of the royal wedding -- at least, so runs one version of the rumor. Another version holds that Obama wanted to announce the deaths of Ghaddafy and Osama Bin Laden on the same day, but the former refused to co-operate.
Lest we forget... Anyone else out there recall this elaborate graphic depicting Osama Bin Laden's "Dr. No" hideaway? That hoax should remind us that the government does use the media to lie to us.
Some Pakistanis beg to differ. According to the International Business Times, two Pakistani television stations insist that Osama Bin Laden is still alive. The apparent source for this claim is a Taliban-affiliated group in Pakistan.
Bodies. If Osama had to be buried at sea because no country would take the corpse, then what happened to the bodies of his son and the woman presumed to be his wife?
What did Pakistan know? Steve Coll of the New Yorker has written an excellent piece addressing this topic.
Abbottabad is essentially a military-cantonment city in Pakistan, in the hills to the north of the capital of Islamabad, in an area where much of the land is controlled or owned by the Pakistani Army and retired Army officers.
It stretches credulity to think that a mansion of that scale could have been built and occupied by bin Laden for six years without its coming to the attention of anyone in the Pakistani Army.
The initial circumstantial evidence suggests that the opposite is more likely—that bin Laden was effectively being housed under Pakistani state control. Pakistan will deny this, it seems safe to predict, and perhaps no convincing evidence will ever surface to prove the case. If I were a prosecutor at the United States Department of Justice, however, I would be tempted to call a grand jury. Who owned the land on which the house was constructed? How was the land acquired, and from whom? Who designed the house, which seems to have been purpose-built to secure bin Laden? Who was the general contractor? Who installed the security systems? Who worked there? Are there witnesses who will now testify as to who visited the house, how often, and for what purpose?
The standard counter-conspiracy article: Read it here. Parts of this piece by Damian Thompson are boilerplate, but some of it demonstrates actual original thought, which surprises me. Like this:
No body. No photograph or DNA evidence – at least, not yet. [Update: The White House now says there was a DNA match between the body and tissue taken from bin Laden's dead sister's brain.] Conspiracy theorists are an ingenious bunch, but at the moment the White House is making this ridiculously easy for them.
Moreover, why did it allow bin Laden’s body to be dropped into the sea? Is the US really so sensitive to Islamic burial practices that it is prepared to hand conspiracy theorists such a gift?
Thank you for that, Damian. We'll probably never catch an American journalist making that (rather obvious) observation.
This article notes that conspiracy theories are even more prevalent in the Middle East than in the United States. I have no doubt that, even in Islamic countries, a lot of people are asking why there was no autopsy.
I do have a bone to pick with Thompson...
We’ve also seen young, Left-wing disciples of Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore happily draw on 9/11 “truther” theories constructed in the American fascist underground.
In a very technical sense, this statement is true. The author is correct to note that the "controlled demolition" nonsense first picked up steam on the right -- that is, on the fascist ultra-right, which has always been opposed to the Bush family and to the (pro-Israel) neocons. (In previous posts, we've looked at the origins of the "controlled demolition" meme.)
It is also true that these fascist musings were later picked up by some very naive (and very annoying) lefties, some of whom may also be fans of Chomsky and Moore. However, the wording of this passage might lead some to believe that Chomsky and Moore themselves believe in "CD" theories. That simply is not the case.
Many of the "truthers" are young people whose political views are rather vague, inchoate and contradictory. The same ninnies used to praise Ron Paul on the Democratic Underground boards.
Right now, CD-ism is primarily a right-wing phenomenon. (Example: Alex Jones, David Icke and Jim Marrs.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but to the best of my knowledge, no-one on the American left holding any position of responsibility has endorsed that silliness.
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"Human shield" - exactly what you'd expect the attackers to say.
And never mind that the attackers' helicopters came under heavy fire from the attacked base, and one of them was lost. It wasn't brought down by enemy fire, oh no. It just developed a "technical" fault and the attackers themselves destroyed it.
What does al-Qaeda say?
I'm waiting for what commercial brands are going to get mentioned in the western propaganda. You know, like with Johnny Walker whisky when Ilich Ramirez Sanchez ("Carlos") was captured, and Mars bars when they seized Sassam Hussein.
Even when they paint Bin Laden as the wickedest man in the world using colours that weren't even thrown at Aleister Crowley, they'll also want to convey the message that Bin Laden couldn't really be consistent, and that his men were always necking Coca-Cola, downloading US porn, and gambling, just as if they were on one of Jack Abramoff's casino yachts or something.
And they'll mention the exact brands.
Wait and see.
I give it 24 hours, to use the phrase used by Gideon Rachman in the Financial Times.
"The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilisation. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it batters down all Chinese walls, with which it forces the barbarians’ intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilisation into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image." (Marx)
Or so it fucking hopes!
The other question is: have they claimed that all members of the attacking unit were US personnel? Because usually you'd expect the US special forces to fuck an operation like this up.
Lastly, another prediction - they're bound to "release" photographs of Bin Laden's body - ostensibly in response to speculation that they didn't really kill him, but really in order to convey the message "we kill our enemies and mutilate their bodies so they don't look Hollywood-like at all! So choose your fucking side, punks!"
Osama doesn't make out with Coca Cola bottles... but you should have seen what he liked to call his O. Henry moment" No one should love chocolate bars that much.
Over here in Britain, to neck drink, or get it down your neck, means to drink it eagerly or in large quantities. Oh and it must be from a container such as a glass, mug, or bottle. Slurping it up from a pond or saucer isn't necking :)
BTW for all the anti-Pakistani propaganda, I can't see how Osama Bin Laden could possibly have lived there for so long, in a "custom-built compound" in what's basically an army town, without US knowledge. Even if it were more of a prison than a home, who'd run it without the US knowing?
"The courier did not make it easy to locate the compound, however, since every time he approached the compound, he turned off his phone. He did this more than 90 minutes out and removed the battery, so he went totally dark."
Oh dear, the cat's out of the bag - mobile phones ("cell phones" in the US?) are tracked even when turned off. (As if we didn't know!)
posted by b : 8:23 AM
The answers to the question "which US brands did Obama favour" are so far, Pepsi and Coke.
But I have spotted a Nestle, which is a Swiss brand.
Harry
posted by Anonymous : 10:23 AM
Well according to robert young pelton in one of my favorite travel books: the world's most dangerous places, "binny" wasn't much of a pepsi fan. :-). Joe, you should read the afghan section of the 4th edition, eery. Apologies for non-caps, damn phones and lazy fingers.
posted by Arbusto205 : 2:02 PM
Thanks Harry. Where's the Coke and Pepsi info from?
When they publish photos of the alleged burial, along with supposed significands of Islam they'll probably also put a few brand names in the picture.
I'm thinking of the propaganda photos when they captured Saddam Hussein's residence:
* fantasy art (he was just a fantasist, right?)
and when they captured the man himself
* down a hole reliant on US TV-commercial-break snack food (you can run, but you can't hide!),
* followed by having loyal US public servants - soldiers and medics - shine a torch in his mouth (the good guys bring illumination)
Crude is best. Tell Goebbels about it! But the OBL story is much bigger - this will be a classic in the history of news photo-propaganda.
posted by b : 11:59 PM
I read an online newspaper report - but I think I took it from a bloomberg terminal. Im sure if you google search "Pepsi" "coke" and "osama" you will find it.
Despite the tone of the preceding post, the thought has occurred to me (and probably to you as well -- admit it, you bastards!) that this death was staged to rescue the President's poll numbers.
Everyone knows that Dubya disdained the importance of catching Bin Laden. All of America will be comparing Obama to Bush -- and the comparison will work to Obama's favor. That fact alone will have many people muttering about "wag the dog" scenarios.
OBL was hiding, it seems, in a mansion in Abbottabad, Pakistan. For years, we've been told that he was hiding in the wilderness, in caves, in a very primitive part of Pakistan. Turns out he was in a nice, big house in what looks to be a rather well-populated suburb near Islamabad -- within walking distance of the Pakistani military academy!
The neighborhood is teeming with retired Pakistani officers, and is surrounded by restricted areas. In other words: Spook city, Pakistan-style. Did Pakistani officials know where Bin Laden was? In this story, an unnamed senior American intelligence official says that they must have known.
Are there reasons for normal, rational-minded blokes who are non-fans of Alex Jones to express at least some skepticism toward the official story coming out of the White House?
A U.S. official told CNN that bin Laden was buried at sea. The official said his body was handled in the Islamic tradition, but did not elaborate.
Buried at sea? So soon?
Thereby making forensic analysis impossible? No dental check, no fingerprint check, no DNA check?
Come on. They couldn't keep the body on ice for a day or two?
According to this AP story, the administration was concerned about offending Muslims, who insist on speedy burial. Plus, no Islamic country would take the remains, or so we are told.
I don't see why the American government is so concerned now about offending Muslim sensibilities. We didn't seem so very concerned about that sort of thing when we embarked upon that great unpleasantness in Iraq. If Obama had shipped the Bin Laden cadaver to the U.S. and kept it on ice for a few days -- well, honestly, what would have happened? Do you think Abu Dhabi would have broken off diplomatic relations? Would Saudi Arabia have announced an oil boycott?
As a matter of fact, Islamic custom dictates washing the body of the deceased and placing it in a shroud, saying certain prayers, then burying the body near the site of death, placed in the grave without a coffin. Burial at sea usually only occurs if a Muslim dies onboard a ship. However...
If it is feared that an enemy may dig up the grave and exhume the dead body and amputate its ears or nose or other limbs, it should be lowered into sea, if possible, as stated in the foregoing rule.
Islamic countries do allow autopsies to be performed when identity or cause of death is an issue.
Yeesh. It's as though someone in the White House intended to rile up the conspiracy theorists.
Aside from all that, the story as we have it seems a little too pat, a little too Hollywood. We're told that the SEALS gave Osama a chance to surrender, and when they didn't, they shot him in the head. I wonder who will get credit for the kill?
More importantly, was there video of the operation? How could there not be video?
In June 2009, Obama directed his CIA director to "provide me within 30 days a detailed operation plan for locating and bringing to justice" Osama Bin Laden. By August 2010 intelligence officials had identified the suspicious compound where Osama lived. Thirty-five minutes outside Islamabad, the walls were up to 18 feet high and topped with barbed wire. The largest structure, a three-story building, had very few windows. Though the house was valued at $1 million, it had no Internet or phone service.
Wouldn't it be amazing if cell phone GPS really did crack the case?
If Panetta was able to do this job so rapidly, then why couldn't Bush? That's the most obvious question. A lot of Americans will be asking it. Obama must want them to ask it.
The timing is a bit odd. Just a month before the identification of the compound, Panetta was saying something very different:
June 27 [2010]: CIA Director Leon Panetta, speaking on ABC News' This Week, stated that that last time the CIA had "precise information" on bin Laden was "the early 2000s." Panetta states that "He is, as is obvious, in very deep hiding. He's in an area of the tribal areas of Pakistan, that is very difficult. The terrain is probably the most difficult in the world...All I can tell you is it's in the tribal areas...we know that he's located in that vicinity."
A senior NATO official tells CNN claims that bin Laden is alive and well, living comfortably in a house in the north-west of Pakistan and being protected by local people and elements of Pakistani intelligence. Stating that "Nobody in al Qaeda is living in a cave," the official stated the bin Laden was likely to have moved around in recent years in areas from the mountainous Chitral region in the far northwest, near the Chinese border, to the Kurram Valley bordering Tora Bora in Afghanistan. The official stated that Ayman al-Zawahiri is believed to be hiding close to bin Laden in houses in northwest Pakistan, but are not together. Another U.S. official sated that bin Laden and Zawahiri are "somewhere in the tribal areas of Pakistan near the Afghanistan border," but that their exact locations are unknown: "If we knew where he was -- in a house, an apartment, a villa or an underground cave or bunker -- we would have gotten him; we can't rule out he may be in a cave one day and a house in a city on another."
The first bit -- the quote from the UN official -- sounds more or less congruent with the current story. However, Abbottabad is in the northeast.
I'd like someone to identify the "U.S. official" who seemed so certain of the "tribal area" location. Was that a deliberate deception? Was the official himself (or herself) deceived?
Here's another obvious question: Why the seeming inaction between August, 2010 and today?
Detainees being held at Guantanamo provided some of the strongest information about those who were trusted by Bin Laden.
Okay, this detail strikes me as being a little too good. How would the Gitmo detainees know such intel? Isn't it just a bit conveeeeeenient that this justification for Gitmo should crop up at this particular time -- right after Wikileaks revealed that 150 of the prisoners were innocent?
By the way, six of Osama Bin Laden's sons were captured. That factoid definitely works against "wag the dog" theorists. One of the sons was killed. Will the surviving six sons be able to tell us which Bin Laden recordings are real? (If you're wondering, Osama had 19 children from four wives.)
Osama isn't the first high-level Al Qaeda figure arrested in Abbottabad. There was the strange case of Umar Patek in January of 2010. Poor Umar lived rather less regally than did the Bin Laden family. One wonders: Did Umar provide the intelligence which fingered Osama's location?
Take note: I've learned the hard way that whenever the topic of Osama Bin Laden comes up, there will always be some arrogant young conspira-tard who will sneer: "Cannon, you fool! Don't you know that Osama Bin Laden died years ago?" No, I do not know that -- and neither do you. If you have actual evidence for that proposition, by all means share with the rest of the class. But first, please consult a dictionary to make sure you are clear on the difference between "surmise" and "evidence."
I don't mind a moderate amount of surmise (as this very post demonstrates), but I insist on drawing a careful distinction between speculation and that which we know.
Probably spotted going to the local convenience store for a pack of cigarettes or something. We are coming up on the 10th anniversary of 911 so he got sloppy.
The one thing this proves is that Pakistan is not our friend.
posted by Mr. Mike : 5:59 AM
The first thing that popped into my head when my girlfriend told me the "killed Bin Laden" was, "I bet we never see a body". Now to find out from you that they "buried" him at sea pretty much immediately......well, let's just say that my suspicions are raised. Quite convenient, don't you think? Especially right after the Wikileaks release about Guantanamo (though there was already loads of evidence around before that pointing to the innocence of the majority of detainees......not least of which the fact that only a very small number had actually been accused of anything, let alone charged).
It has to be said to, that this happens quite soon after the release of the long form birth certificate. I'm not a birther by any stretch, and have been arguing about this with a coworker for quite some time (she is a birther). My personal view is that it's a distraction, probably fed by the administration itself to some extent, to distract from the lawlessness and secrecy of this "Democrat" administration. Still, the timing is curious.
We'll never see a body, and I have little doubt that even if it was him it was done for politically expedient reasons and his location was probably always known to the top people. After all, he was a CIA asset in the past. As you say, I of course do not KNOW any of this for certain. Just speculation that I strongly believe to be true (based on the evidence I have seen and read).
posted by Gus : 7:22 AM
"... but I insist on drawing a careful distinction between speculation and that which we know." So does (possibly, neccessarily) Obama. Or any executive of the status quo (capitalism vs. socialism). Even anybody with an agenda of overcoming the status quo would have to, or otherwise lose grip on "the power". Just one practical example: Truth (in scientific terms) kills speculation. Truth makes (IS) speculation redundant. Truth is rational. The opposite is irrational. Endless spinning. There might be even an end to that hence natural science put it. Thats why it wouldn't come as a surprise to me, if something happens to that billion-dollar space experiment currently on the brink. Physiks is just one step away from possibly making ONE point and that would be ZERO.) Capital is irrationality applied. How if Obama had killed great part of one of the last industries left, in the US and elsewhere, namely the "information"-industry. Not even a Saint could afford setting free hundreds of millions of employees that now (still)take care of the infrastructure, etc. Dis-occupying even more minds from meta-physical speculation (madness) may be compared to nuclear fusion. But VERY much mighty. So, preserving the status quo, in the de-constructionalistic way, may have come by acknowledging the reality of the epoch. (vulgar : "Zeitgeist"). You go to PEACE with the (-distorted- minds and industries of the people that are THERE). (Or as even one christian-democ-rat chancelor Kohl once said: :"What counts is, what comes out in ze back [sic]) ->consider ... PS:I feel somewhat incomfortable using Your blog for posting, don't know why)
After hearing the news last night I turned to my son-in-law and said: "Something just doesn't sit well about this whole thing."
I find it odd that millions of dollars, lives and treasure were expended for many many years all in the hunt for Bin Laden and then.....All of a sudden....BOOM! Obama bags him! And, he was sitting in plain sight ( so to speak ) all along?
"Though the house was valued at $1 million, it had no Internet or phone service."
Well, I don't know what the house had or didn't have, but from the photos I've seen, that HUGE satellite dish and adjacent radio transmission tower were used for something
posted by Tiro : 9:55 AM
OBL death was deliberately set up to facilitate a conspiracy so as to hide the Birth Certificate fraud. The timing is just too coincidental and the fake long form just too pathetic. Each is so ridiculous as to make conspiracies begin to look loony. THe fact that they both are insane lends credibility by the bought and paid for MSM. We will buy anything and believe anything. There are no conspiracies.