Gerald Posner, of Case Closed infamy, is now the chief investigative correspondent for the Daily Beast. He has just been caught plagiarizing from a Miami Herald story:
He said he had no memory of having seen the Herald story, describing himself as "absolutely sure" he did not see it before sending his own story to Beast editors. But that memory must be wrong, he said, because the similarities between the two pieces are too great, and the Herald's story was posted before he e-mailed his to his editors at 2:03 a.m. on Feb. 2.
I'm not sure how one can lose memory of an act of plagiarism committed so recently. But what should we have expected? Gerry is also the fellow who falsely "gave the impression" that he had interviewed James Tague, Carlos Bringuier and JFK pathologist J. Thornton Boswell. In fact, he seems to have lied about Boswell to Congress:
On November 17, 1993 before the House Committee on Government Operations, Posner reported that he had interviewed two of Kennedy’s pathologists, James Humes, M.D. and J. Thornton Boswell, M.D. Posner testified that they confirmed to him that they had changed their minds about the original location they had given for Kennedy’s skull wound....Posner informed the U.S. Congress that the pathologists told him that they had erred [in their original autopsy report]—the [head]wound was 10 centimeters higher, at the top rear of the skull. On March 30, 1994, I called both Drs. Humes and Boswell. Both physicians told me that they had not changed their minds about Kennedy’s wounds at all. They stood by their statements...which contradicted Posner. Startlingly, Dr. Boswell told me that he has never spoken with Posner.
Actually, I think Posner may not be lying in the present instance. It is possible that he does not have any recollection of plagiarizing the Miami Herald story because he may not, in fact, have done the actual copying.
Does he actually write about his own stuff, or does he merely sign his name to it? Some people have wondered about that for years. Suspicions were aroused, in part, by the odd lack of an authorial voice -- by his plywood-flat, "manufactured by committee" writing style. (If you ran his books through one of those programs designed to identify an author by style, what would you get?) During the CC brouhaha, he was a strangely ubiquitous media presence, and in some of his interviews he said things (about Jack Ruby, for example) that indicated an unfamiliarity with his own book.
(I would never be so churlish as to suggest that the same unknown party wrote both the Miami Herald story and the Posner piece. Both concerned the murder of the heir to the Fontainebleau Hotel fortune. An interesting topic.)
On a more substantive level: Before Case Closed, he wrote a work on Josef Mengele. A surprisingly short time before that book appeared, he gave testimony before Congress giving -- in detail -- a completely different (and much more persuasive) story about Mengele's post-war career. Given the long lead times for publication and the amount of time it takes to write any substantive book, this striking about-face was astounding.
Posner has always denied being a "spooked up" journalist. It's just a coincidence that he managed to secure an interview with defector Yuri Nosenko even though the CIA always kept everyone else away from him. And then there's Why America Slept, which is filled with behind-the-scenes CIA and FBI material. Time claimed it to be an "indictment" of the agencies, but it clearly was part of a faction fight within the intelligence community:
The stuff that is going to spark hot debate is Chapter 19, an account—based on Zubaydah's claims as told to Posner by "two government sources" who are unnamed but "in a position to know"...
Posner elaborates in startling detail how U.S. interrogators used drugs—an unnamed "quick-on, quick-off" painkiller and Sodium Pentothal, the old movie truth serum—in a chemical version of reward and punishment to make Zubaydah talk. When questioning stalled, according to Posner, cia men flew Zubaydah to an Afghan complex fitted out as a fake Saudi jail chamber, where "two Arab-Americans, now with Special Forces," pretending to be Saudi inquisitors, used drugs and threats to scare him into more confessions.
This was published in the summer of 2003. Think about it: At that moment, Gerry Posner was getting "methods and operations" stuff from the CIA that no-one else could ever hope to get -- inside info about the interrogations of Al Qaeda suspects, the touchiest of touchy subjects. Do you need any further evidence to understand what Case Closed was all about?
On the lighter side, I direct your attention to the photo of Posner published above. Note the hair color. Keep in mind that the Mr. Honesty was born in 1954 -- in other words, he's older than I am, yet there's not a touch of gray -- and his hair used to be brushy. If you type "Gerald Posner" into Google, one of the more prominent auto-completions includes the words "plastic surgery."
This may explain Posner's attraction to the Michael Jackson story. Last July, he wrote about Jackson killing himself accidentally. Well, accidents happen. Even plagiarism, we're told, happens by accident. (He also says that scientist Mary Sherman was killed in an "accidental fire" despite the multiple stab wounds.) I must confess that, previously, I never gave Jackson's death too much thought -- but now that I find that Gerry has interjected himself into the story, I'll have to take a look at it. His byline sets off my spook alarm.
(Maybe Gerry had accidental plastic surgery...?)
Plagiarism and giving false testimony to Congress would normally destroy the reputation of a journalist. For Posner, these things always seem to be mere bumps in the road. That fact alone tells you that the fix is in.
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That was a great read. Thank you for doing all that research. And you're just a youngster too.
When I first saw Posner's latest photo, I thought maybe he was the son of the guy who wrote Case Closed. He has definitely had a lot of work done.
-- Boston Boomer
posted by Anonymous : 3:37 PM
In view of what you say about Posner what do you make of his claim that Zubaydah was "relieved" to be interviewed by two US agents posing as "Saudis"? How do you assess Zubaydah's reported claim that two of four Saudis named by him had prior knowledge of the 9/11 attacks? Any thoughts?
posted by wxyz : 5:21 PM
You have NO IDEA (or maybe you do) how many times I've tried to tell people that Mr. Posner is spookier than the Bell Witch. What the hell is wrong with Americans?
posted by Nibbles McGee : 5:31 PM
I love that phrase: Spookier than the Bell Witch. I plan to steal it one of these days.
I would like to take this opportunity to squash the rumor that Gerry Posner dies his hair with the blood of sacrificed virgins. But his smile looks a lot stranger -- broader -- than it used to.
You know, if he changes to green hair dye and paints his face white, he could step into the shoes of the late Heath Ledger...
Ya think he wore/wears leisure suits? Pastel ones with white slip-on shoes and a white belt? Isn't that the uniform for most conspiracy book authors? I know the guys that write all those Bermuda Triangle books would appear on TV wearing them.
posted by Mr Mike : 8:50 PM
Posner is u g l y. He should sue his plastic surgeons and then copy a book about it!
I have too much work on my plate to do an actual authorship analysis right now.
However, I found six additional passages/sentences in Posner's article that had been lifted verbatim from the Miami Herald article.
And with minimal effort (20 minutes), I found a second article of Posner's with plagiarized content.
I e-mailed the info to the writer at Slate.
posted by G : 10:35 PM
G: Now THAT is interesting. And it could really change things if a pattern develops. I'm going to look for old Gerry stories -- best to capture them now before they can be changed. (Go for the Google cache versions.)
Now it would be very very VERY interesting if Posner cribbed from the same author in multiple instances.
Isn't Zubydah a woman's name in Arabic, at least that what I though.
posted by Anonymous : 2:57 AM
I have had my own (Robert) Kennedy assassination moments while investigating the Stanford University connected Endovasc biotech fraud whose worthless penny stock shares,besides turning up in a CIA connected boiler room called Bellador Group that also promoted shares of the CIA'S SRA International - (the U.S. government's 'IT' for the White House that 'lost' Clinton email and maybe W's).The SEC,GAO and all sorts of military contracts are given to them and the CIA's In-Q-Tel is or was the major share holder. An attorney from Santa Monica named Francis Pizzulli,(famous for his role in sueing a tabloid in the California Supreme court because it alledged his Pakistani client was part of Robert Kennedy assassination ),was given at least $125,000 of worthless shares by Endovasc's CEO David P Summers around 2003.As it turned out attorney Francis Pizzulli was soon to be known as American torturer Jack or Jonathan Idema's attorney in Afghanistan as well and I believe Endovasc shares were used for that purpose. - Tony Ryals
California Attorney Francis Pizzulli,Robert F Kennedy Assassination,Afghhan Torture,Fraud author: Tony Ryals e-mail: wolfblitzzer0@gmail.com And now I discover that Santa Monica,California attorney Pizzulli,the penny stock scoundrel and defender of torturer and Middle East money launderer Jack Idema,(through Moslem 'hawala channels and possibly through attorney Pizzulli's own underworld U.S. penny stock connections),- was also instrumental in using the California Supreme Court to suppress investigation into the assassination of Robert F Kennedy as well !
................................
Also if anyone here is good at identifying plagiarism or the origen of obscure terms,what about the term 'naked shorting' or 'naked short selling' that was first used by Clinton money launderer James Dale Davidson to distract from illegal but SEC protected pumps and dumps of Genemax,Endovasc and later by Chris Cox and SEC itself to 'explain' the collapse in share price of Fannie Mae,Freddie Mac and even Goldman Sachs shares !? For some reason the Zionistas Carl Levin and Arlen 'Magic Bullet' Specter joined Utah Moron Senators Bob Bennett and Orin Hatch in promoting this fraudulent term.Who first used it ? Am I correct in attributing it to James Dale Davidson who also started the Clinton killed Vince Foster rumor ? I sure wish someone like Joseph Cannon would investigate this outrageous 'naked short selling' claim being made by U.S.Senators as well as the SEC itself.
I wonder if Carl Levin and Arlen 'Magic Bullet'Specter can tell us how to say 'naked shorting' or 'naked short selling' in Hebrew and how long it has been a problem on the Israeli TASE stock market or is this fraudulent term used by right wing Beltway protected scum like Steve Forbes National Taxpayers Union founder James Dale Davidson only used by Israelis in the U.S. to take attention from their illegal pump and dump money laundering scams against Americans !?
The organizer of the Tea Party Convention says he agrees with Tom Tancredo's description of President Obama as a socialist.
The former congressman from Colorado and 2008 Republican presidential candidate blasted Obama, saying "people who could not even spell the word 'vote', or say it in English, put a committed socialist ideologue in the White House. His name is Barack Hussein Obama."
Judson Phillips, a Tennessee lawyer who formed Tea Party Nation and who organized what's being billed as the first national Tea Party Convention, told reporters Friday that "Tom Tancredo gave a fantastic speech last night. I think he is an amazing politician."
Asked if he agrees with Tancredo's description of Obama, Phillips said, "The word 'socialist' is a word you don't want to be labeled with in the American political system. It's got a lot of negative connotations, but it also has a very specific political meaning. It refers to a specific political ideology. I think it is very clear that that is the political ideology of Barack Obama."
Phillips added that he thinks "Tancredo doesn't feel like a lot of people who supported Barack Obama understand the basics of this country."
This movement really has nothing to do with Obama, since you know that these guys would say the same thing about any Democratic president.
I cannot believe that "socialism" is a political flashpoint in this day and age. What has this country come to?
Time to say it: All -- all all all ALL ALL ALL -- teabaggers are reactionary neanderthal assholes, the worst of the worst. This fascistic neo-Birchite hate movement encapsulates everything that is wrong with this country. Anyone who tries to sell you on the lie that there is diversity within that movement, or that some elements are liberal-friendly, is simply a bought-and-paid-for infiltrator trying to sell you cyanide relabeled as soda pop.
And I'll call 'em teabaggers if I damn well want to. I'll call 'em much worse before this is done.
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One thing I know. Obama was in office because of Repub. wanted him there. They know that Hillary is the real enemy to them. Any one who disputes that wasn't alive during 2007-2008. They paid money, voted in primaries to help defeat Hillary and made sure the most candidate hated by conseratives(Macain) won the nomination for their party. Now just watch the half assed attacks on Obama by Fox or any other consv. media compared to what they leveled at Clinton whether he was in office or not and you will get my point. The fact that they are calling him a socialist when he is far removed from any hint of it proved that they are either idiets who don't even know what the term means or they are just distraction so people won't notice how a fucking republican he is.
The Tea Party apologists are as deluded as the O-pologists. The enema of your enemy is not your always your friend. Like Obama, T-baggers will throw Useful Idiot Democrats under the bus when no longer needed. UID's are fooling themselves if they think there is a big tent or they have anything in common with those xenophobic loons.
posted by Mr Mike : 6:49 AM
And last night "the birthers" made another appearance in the form of Joseph Farah, CEO of WorldNet.com or some radical right wing loony blog.
Can't wait to see Palin tonight with a speech more than likely populated with "god" throughout the text which will be the culmination of just what this group is all about.
God, guns, anti government, racist, and filled with the voices of the Lunatic Fringe being treated as a worthwhile testament to political activism.
This, my friends, are the examples being offered to you as the "real Americans" we have heard so much about. Nice to know.
posted by Anonymous : 6:57 AM
So...
How do you explain Obama's statement that he was "five days away from fundamentally changing America?
Don't fall for it. Republican trickiness in full effect. Keep your emotions and perspective in check.
posted by aleealee : 8:26 AM
I also agree. Someone who does not know how to or want to fight Republicans won the Democratic nomination. The person who does know how and wants to did not.
posted by aleealee : 8:28 AM
These people are just about to push me back into the Democratic Party. Seriously.
This "socialism" issue forced me to go back to the books for definition as it has been a long, long time since I took Political Science in High School. From the definitions I've read, I would have to agree that Obama has socialistic leanings. His "share the wealth" philosophy, his take-over of the Car Industry and his attempts to pass Health Insurance Reform in order to "mandate" then "push" people to buy insurance certainly smacks of Socialism to me. And that doesn't even include the fact that the National Parks have insured that the government owns a great portion of this country's land and what the government doesn't own it can grab by enacting the "eminent domain" law such as was done in TX in order to create the "NAU Highway". So, there is cause for concern and basis for conjecture here.
Lonni
posted by Anonymous : 9:05 AM
True progressives would team,when applicable, with the antiwar elements of the tea party, whether Buchananite non-interventionists who more or less wish to limit America's sphere of influence to this hemisphere, or libertarian followers of Ron Paul, who want even less militarism. I'll bet most Iraqis and Afghanis and Pakis would agree.
Then again, some so-called progs find little fault in the worldwide Empire of Bases.
myiq2xu, From the planet of "closet teapartiers". There are even Progs and Libs who immigrated to that planet to send a message to Obama and the Dems.
posted by beeta : 4:26 PM
So Lonni if we sell the Parks who will get the land? In my area the Feds and the power companies seized millions of acres through eminent domain for a fraction of their worth (and they knew it at the time). Recently one of the utilities declared some of that seized land surplus and sold it for tens of millions of dollars. Would you give it back to the original owners-- a true conservative would. A liberal wouldn't sell it all. So what does that make those who steal and sell to the highest bidder? I suspect they are Tea Baggers.
Hillbuzz posted Palin's speech to the tea party movement.
I can see now how she became Governor. She is actually capable of becoming President. She has been portrayed as buffoon, a slutty air hostess etc etc. but if you look at how she worked the crowd she is extremely good at connecting to the "common man". I wont go through everything she did but from starting her speech saying several times how proud she was to be an American (She's never letting you live that down Michelle) onward she knew just how to manipulate the crowd she was in front of.
She clearly is not brainy but she is one of those rare people that somehow have a spark or knack for doing what they do that sets them apart. She is a formidable politicians and she may well run for the presidency and beat Obama-by being an everyman to his aloof ivory tower scholar.
Pity these types are so rarely democrats.
As far as what she said making sense-her ideas don't make sense but her skill in presenting them makes it hard not to respect her.
posted by Snowflake : 10:24 PM
Snowflake So another words America is in need of snake oil and she is the one to sell it?
posted by beeta : 10:07 AM
A successful politician has to have a connection with the people he represents. Obama never had one. He fed off the anger people had towards George Bush and when that anger faded he had no hold on the public.
I have no idea what he is going to do for the next three years to get support now-he seems to be genuinely tone deaf. The Las Vegas comments are one of a string of bizarre utterances that make you wonder if he has his head screwed on right. I hope for the sake of the democratic party they figure out how to sell the guy now-but it looks kinda grim to me.
Conversely Palin keeps getting better at what she does and although I don't support her-she is the better politician by far. One scary thing I just read is she is positioning herself to run as an independent. If she does that I think she will get all the republicans to vote for her anyway-and easily win the next election at least vs. Obama.
posted by Snowflake : 12:11 PM
Yeah, just what we need is a snakeoil salesperson in a skirt to counteract the snakeoil salesperson in golf togs that we already have.
Makes perfect sense to me [gag].
I actually don't have a personal animus against the Tea Party people. I think [but then what do I know]that many of these members are ordinary working Americans with genuine grievances--jobs going bye-bye, insane spending from both parties, no assurance that the country is going to be around for their kids, politicians sucking Wall Street toes, a lack of respect or even nudging regard for middle class values, etc., etc., etc.
What worries me are the "others." Those who wish to whip the herd with the old standard buzzwords of Mom, the flag and apple pie for their own ends, which has nothing to do with the ordinary voter and everything to do with playing King of the Mountain. The guy with the most stuff wins.
We're in a bloody mess right now. What influence will the Tea Party group have? Right now, I'm not sure. But there's an undercurrent in all this, something I really do not trust.
I think we need to be alert and fully awake.
As far as Obama being a socialist? Don't make me laugh!
posted by Anonymous : 1:24 PM
beeta, Palin can and will support selling U.S. jobs to "immigrant" businessmen and women just as easily as Obama has done. The party that puts a stop to hustling foreign lobby money and sends these poseurs packing will win upcoming elections.
posted by Anonymous : 3:09 PM
An interesting comment-at least to me.
I've noticed that the relationship between the US and China is starting to deteriorate.
It is of course hard to tell if this is a plan of Obama's or just more of his general cluelessness but there seems to be a growing possibility of a trade war. This is in conjunction with talk about taxing businesses that send jobs overseas.
The one thing that Obama could do to make me feel any respect for him now that he has failed on health care is to restore manufacturing in the US via tarrifs and trade wars.
Maybe that's not right in some economic nirvana-but so what. I hope he does it and does it fast.
posted by Snowflake : 11:30 PM
Anon3:09, I am not sure what you mean by your comment. American trade policy and election financing are problem areas without regard to party. And Palin being ultra right would be pro business and pro lobby. But, what do you mean?
The video below offers an important insight into the ongoing mystery of flight 253, the so-called Christmas bomber or "crotch bomber."
The video is some years old -- I'm not sure how old. It concerns 9/11, always a touchy subject in these here parts. The introductory comments are from John Judge, who came under sharp attack from the CD nuts because he didn't go along with their bombs-in-the-buildings crap. I'm not sure that I agree with what Judge has to say here about the Pentagon strike.
But 9/11 is not -- repeat: NOT -- the topic I want to address right now. And if you insist on jumping onto that topic anyways, stand warned: I am in a mood to moderate comments ruthlessly.
Right now, our topic is the more recent Christmas terror attempt -- the so-called "crotch-bomber case. If you watch this video all the way through, you will see the relevance:
Basically, the bulk of this presentation comes from a stewardess who often worked on that flight, and who lost a friend when the jet crashed into the Pentagon.
I'll transcribe the part which is germane to our present discussion:
On August 25 [2001] -- I'm constantly working this route, seven times a month -- I had one of the alleged hijackers on my plane, that flew the second trade tower plane, into the second trade tower. The one that kind of sliced it through. Flight 173 United Airlines. His name is Al-Shehhi. If you ever see a picture of all the hijackers, he's the one with the little round glasses.
I had him on my flight on August 25. He videotaped us almost the entire time. Which wasn't unusual, back then. And he asked us to go to the cockpit three times. And he told us he was a pilot for Saudi Arabian airlines. He was a nice, friendly guy. I wasn't suspicious of anything. Normal behavior back then.
The connection to the more recent incident should be obvious. As I wrote:
A mystery man kept his camera going throughout the entire flight, as though expecting an incident to occur. We have at least two perfectly congruent and credible eyewitness descriptions of this "mystery movie-maker," who has made no attempt to capitalize on his remarkable footage.
There may be an innocent explanation for that. But right now, the situation seems more than a little suspicious. A mystery videographer who films the whole flight suggests advanced knowledge of a "terror" scheme which was intended to fail.
The Al-Shehhi videography exercise, conducted a couple of weeks before 9/11, makes perfect sense: Hijackers would want to know in advance just what to expect during the flight. They were, in essence, casing the joint.
It therefore seems logical to presume that the guy videotaping on Christmas was similarly "casing the joint."
Okay. So why was there a fire in Farouk's crotch? Why that flight, as opposed to a later flight? It doesn't make sense for a jihadi to try to pull off an act of terror on the same flight that carries a compatriot who is doing surveillance for some future act of terror.
Now let's check in with Kurt Haskell, one of the witnesses who saw Farouk (the abortive bomber) meet with a "well-dressed man" in the Schipol airport. He has written a long piece from which I draw the following excerptions, relevant to the above:
The only reason I am here today is that Mutallab's bomb did not explode. We have to ask whether it was ever intended to explode?
The following evidence supports the theory that the bomb was intended to explode:
1. Mutallab went all the way to Yemen to obtain the bomb. 2. It was stitched into his underwear. 3. The quantity of explosive was enough to blow up the plane. 4. Mutallab purchased a one-way ticket without luggage (except for one small carry-on bag).
The following evidence supports the theory that the bomb was not intended to explode:
1. The bomb required a detonator to explode. This bomb did not have (Or had a malfunctioning detonator) a detonator. 2. It is difficult to believe that Mutallab would plan for this event in such great detail, but not assure that it would work. 3. A camera man filmed the entire attack from before it started until after it ended. 4. The U.S. Government allowed Mutallab on the plane in order to track him in the U.S. and catch potential accomplices.
The following is evidence that the U.S. Government knew Mutallab had a bomb when he boarded Flight 253:
1. The U.S. Government had pre-purchased body scanning machines. 2. The U.S. Government had already begun bombing Yemen. 3. The camera man on the plane. Although, this would indicate that the U.S. Government knew Mutallab had a defective bomb. 4. The extensive evidence over the months leading up to the flight, which included wire tapped intercepts indicating that someone named "Umar Farouk" would be attempting a terrorist attack. 5. Michael Chertoff's ties to the company that produces the body scanning machines.
The rest of Haskell's long piece is of great interest, but I don't have the time to talk about all of it. I would, however, like to draw your attention to this excellent piece from January 22 by our old friend AntiFascist. He develops an idea that few others have discussed:
CongressDaily reported on January 22 that intelligence officials "have acknowledged the government knowingly allows foreigners whose names are on terrorist watch lists to enter the country in order to track their movement and activities."
Leiter told the Committee: "I will tell you, that when people come to the country and they are on the watch list, it is because we have generally made the choice that we want them here in the country for some reason or another."
CongressDaily reporter Chris Strohm, citing an unnamed "intelligence official" confirmed that Leiter's statement reflected government policy and told the publication, "in certain situations it's to our advantage to be able to track individuals who might be on a terrorist watch list because you can learn something from their activities and their contacts."
Patrick F. Kennedy, an undersecretary for management at the State Department, said Abdulmutallab's visa wasn't taken away because intelligence officials asked his agency not to deny a visa to the suspected terrorist over concerns that a denial would've foiled a larger investigation into al-Qaida threats against the United States.
"Revocation action would've disclosed what they were doing," Kennedy said in testimony before the House Committee on Homeland Security. Allowing Adbulmutallab to keep the visa increased chances federal investigators would be able to get closer to apprehending the terror network he is accused of working with, "rather than simply knocking out one solider in that effort."
So. Can we put all of this together into a single, reasonably persuasive "Theory of Farouk"?
Not yet. But I feel that we are close to that point.
If the videographer was a terrorist "casing" the flight, why didn't the government interview him or even talk about him?
Since it makes sense that a terrorist would videotape a flight before the actual attack, why didn't the "mystery videographer" of Christmas set off all sorts of alarms? Why was he allowed to tape? The stewardess in the video indicates that such taping, once common, is now no longer allowed -- or at least, it raises suspicions.
(If you're a CD crank, and if you are just dying right now for the chance to give me the familiar "Cannon doesn't understand the laws of physics" rap, head on over to Rigorous Intuition. Have yourself a ball.)
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My questions: Was the videographer accompanying the hero/movie producer who tackled the bomber? Was the videographer our government agent? Does the fact that the security at those airports the bomber went through are operated by the Israelis have any bearing on this?I read that security for certain flights through Amsterdam was/is lax to allow certain contraband into the country. Someone else suggested that the banker father had ulterior motives in reporting his son to American authorities, that the son and he, who were supposedly estranged, were together for a family gathering just before this flight. Note that now that the family of the bomber have been brought to this country, the son is "cooperating" with our interrogators.
Something doesn't smell right.
Did the son really believe he was going on a suicide mission or was he injured inadvertently?
PS: Who was the other man arrested at Detroit? Why were the passengers moved to another area of the airport after dog sniffed his luggage? Why did the government try to downplay eye-witness acounts of the other "well-dressed Indian man" in Amsterdam?
Was this all a play with some unintended consequences?
On the one hand, I'm still reviled by the term "crotch bomber." Because I hate the "c-word." (Personal thing.) On the other hand, "[i]...why was there a fire in Farouk's crotch?[/i]" is hysterical and made me LOL.
posted by Nibbles : 1:12 PM
Sometimes I leave a coat hanger in the car just in case I accidentally lock my keys inside the car.
Clearly the videographer was videotaping the explosion from close up because he could get more money selling the tape later on.
And you thought it was more complicated than that. (satire alert, satire alert).
Well Joseph you certainly keep it interesting. I really think the videographer had to be complicit in the scheme and like you said was gathering intelligence data if the bomb failed. Videotaping it most certainly gives them a mountain of information that they can use against us in the future. Positions of the Sky Marshall's, how many, what kind of crew, how big the crew was, where the bomber needs to be when detonation, etc.
That may be how these guys operate. Try something, if it fails analyze the evidence and work to fix the problem. That is a pretty scientific approach and unfortunately we've been educating some of these people in science fields for many years.
As for the belief that our government would let a man carrying even a useless bomb onto a plane where he could attempt to detonate it stretches the imagination pretty thin. Much as thinking our government could possibly have had anything to do with 9/11. There most assuredly is some misguided people in our government and our government hasn't functioned well in a long time but I can't believe our government would ever do anything so heinous.
posted by gregoryp : 4:33 PM
The videographer was taping the whole flight, not just the explosion. Was this a "play" and whose gov. was directing it? Ours or Theirs.
I'm feeling paranoid that I'm stating the obvious, but maybe the idea was to amount what appears to be an attempt to bomb the plane (a dry run - not ever the real thing) in order to see how we respond to the bomber so that they can be prepared to disarm us in the real attempt.
If that's what they're doing, a videotape of the effort would contain invaluable information.
Joe and Lori, could it be that the bomber decided at the last minute to get his share of virgins? He tried to turn the dry run into the real thing. If you can't videotape any more why was the guy doing it allowed to continue? Was there no sky marshal on board?
posted by Mr Mike : 8:53 PM
Joe, I'm thinkin' he may not have known it was a dry run. He's crazy. Maybe they just wanted to see what we did with him.
I mean, why waste someone who is capable of pulling this off by having them do something that will get them to prison. Let the crazy guys do the dry runs so they can see what we do.
Videotaping the whole flight gives them information about how operatives behave on the plane, etc. are there any clues that someone is air marshal? Stuff like that.
"But what guy is going to set his private parts on fire just to stage a dry run?"
Joseph, the same kind of unsuspecting guy who prepared and lusted for 72 Virgins only to get PUNKED by our CIA friends, who THOUGHT he was flying on 'MO AIR.'
I say it was a setup. What's the point of videotaping a suicide flight? If it succeeds, the tape is gone. If it fails, the tape is seized. The young guy was a dupe.
—g.
posted by Anonymous : 7:51 AM
If the bomb had actually exploded, the video taper - and his video - would have ended end up at the bottom of the ocean along with everything else, making the taping a useless gesture.
It seems to me that the video dude knew full well he was on a dry run.
The bomber (seems to me) did not know this. He did not know the detonator was defective. He did not know he would be apprehended, and did not know about the taping.
But now he does know about the video dude and has figured out for himself that the bomb was designed to be a dud.
Maybe he's realized he has been played for the ultimate fool.
Maybe that's why he has started talking again, Mirandized ro not.
To be clear as to why John Judge was judged harshly by the, well, Truther community I suppose you could say, it's exactly this woman and her story with regard to the no-plane theory at the Pentagon. (Only a 'no-bomb' theory as it regards that alternative explanation for what happened at the Pentagon. I don't know of Judge's position as to CD in the towers.)
Judge had been adamant that he knew someone like this woman and her story personally, that she had been there, told him these things with a high degree of credibility, including her repeated story here of finding a severed hand/wrist/forearm wearing a bracelet she recognized as her friend's.
The problem with Judge's story was somewhat the credibility (the original take seemed to say this person known to him somehow went from not being on that usual flight that day to being somehow on the scene there that day, seeing what she saw in situ, in real time, as part of the immediate recovery work. She now clarifies this was some day or two later at an area where these remains had been accumulated, which rather belies the purported import of her commentary in my view.)
The other problem was that while Judge promised he would soon provide this person, or at least her identity to check out her bona fides as being indeed a flight attendant who'd worked that route, his promise to do so was in late 2001 or early 2002 around the time of the Theiysson (sp?) 'no-Pentagon plane' book. Evidently he's now belatedly done so, but if this video was 2 years ago, it took 5 years or more for the 'soon' to happen, during which time Judge was under attack for credibility as a special pleading disinfo guy on this matter (citing personal exclusive knowledge that he wouldn't support with the evidence he said he would soon provide).
As much as I've looked at various allegations in these matters in that past I learned something today that ties in a number with what this woman says.
The passenger manifests have been at issue in the past. Partial lists of 'victims' (labeled as such, evidently, by airline company releases) didn't include alleged hijackers names, leading to claims that the manifests themselves (which weren't in evidence) didn't include such names.
A site I found reproduced alleged manifests that did include alleged hijacker names, but curiously, left **6** **alleged passengers'** names blank. This woman recounts (I guess a hearsay account) phone call from a flight attendant known to her stating **6** people were hijacking the plane. And this is common to all the flights. There are more unidentified parties per plane than the alleged 5.
You almost went unpublished, XI -- as I said, this post is not about 9/11, and if I allow a thread to get sidetracked down that path -- well, I know full well what will happen. Been there, done that, not again. I will never again relive the days when I dreaded visiting my own damned blog, and I really don't care who thinks I am being unfair.
Judge doesn't believe in violence. I do, at least to this extent: I wish that every CDer had but one set of teeth so that I could do major dentistry with a baseball bat.
I won't say all that I know, but I will say this, based on my experience. If Judge says he met a person, I would bet the rent money that he met that person. If he says he knows somebody, he knows somebody. But if he's reconstructing something he read in a book or an article, you should look for an exact citation before you repeat the info. I'm not saying that he's always wrong, or even often wrong. I'm just saying that it's best to double check. "Trust, but verify," to quote a president that neither Judge nor I much cared for.
Hey, you should double-check me as well. What else are hyper-links and Google for?
And it is very consistent with the man's personality for him to say in front of a crowd: "I know a person who says thus and such" -- without thinking of the potential repercussions. As in: hecklers crying "Oh yeah? Prove it! Let's talk to this person!" And then he would be faced with the problem of asking a person who wants to maintain her privacy to come out in public and grapple with half-insane (or fully insane) conspiracy nutters who feel obliged to defend the stupid theory that has a hammerlock on their souls and without which their entire self-image would crumble.
If I were that woman, I would not have come out and exposed myself to that mess.
By the way, would I be sexist if I said that I think she's attractive?
"the witnesses who saw Farouk (the abortive bomber) meet with a "well-dressed man" in the Schipol airport"
Afaik that has been cleared up. Check Haskell's blog. Another passenger contacted him and made the point that it wasn't Abdulmuttalab, but a similarly dressed teenager who was accompanied by an airline employee.
posted by Gray : 10:44 AM
That is NOT what Haskell says. Haskell voices suspicion of the person who made that claim -- a government-linked individual who hasn't spoken in public. None of the other witnesses back up this idea.
But what has become of tradecraft, when such blatant red flags such as these videotapers appear in the story so suspiciously? It's almost as if they aren't trying very hard, or know that the discrepancies and odd questions will not be aired.
XI
posted by Anonymous : 5:03 PM
I wouldn't rule out that the man videotaping it was simply another terrorist who, for whatever reason, managed to get through whatever security setup was there after the plane landed. Security set ups of TSA have often shown themselves to be quite weak.
As for the notion that it wouldn't make sense for an accomplice to videotape the flight if the bomb was expected to detonate, it could be just as likely that he was there to capture why a mission that was intended to succeed failed. For instance, if it did fail and the accomplice got the video out, it could demonstrate any potential on-board security plans that may have foiled the plot which future bombers could learn from.
Just figured I'd pose another speculative angle, assuming there's anything real about this videographer.
There was a time when Richard Nixon said "We're all Keynesians now." Krugman outlines this in his book The Conscience of a Liberal: On economic issues, the bipartisan consensus used to be well to the left of where the Democratic party is today. How did it change?
Not by going the third party route.
The right wing nutsos -- the Friedmanites, the libertarians -- did not say: "We're not getting what we want from the Republicans, so let's form a new party."
Actually, I tell a lie. Before the great takeover occurred, and during the days of Nixon, some right-wing ultras did go down the third party route. A Libertarian party was formed, and the American Independent Party did well in the '68 and '72 elections, under George Wallace and John Schmitz.
George is the one who made that remark about there not being a dime's worth of difference between the two major parties. John is the one who said "If you're out of Schmitz, you're out of gear. And if someone doesn't get that kid get to shut up, I'll do it myself."
Apologies for that digression. (If you weren't alive at that time, you may be confused by the references.)
The reactionary element within this country achieved much greater success when it decided to take over the Republican party. They have now commandeered it to such a degree that John Schmitz' son Joseph has a comfy place in it. (Joseph used to help run Blackwater and he was the DOD IG under W.) The fanatics not only took over the party, they also commandeered the national debate. They set the limits of permissible thought.
The Libertarian party and the American Independent party are still around. I suspect that they have stayed alive due to monies from the Democratic ratfucking fund.
The bottom line is this: Everything that people are now recommending has been tried before. There is nothing new under the sun. It therefore behooves us to look at history.
The "third party" trick was tried and it failed. Unless you call this a success. You want to end up like that? Will that make you happy?
The "take over the old party" trick proved a spectacular success.
Those who are now counsel you to do the exact opposite of what history teaches may have an agenda. The Republicans have an even larger ratfucking fund, you know.
Update: I'm putting a stop to all comments.
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While I'd love to see an actual viable third party in the US, I just don't think it's a viable option at this point in time. The 2 major parties have amassed so much money and power and they are so ingrained into the culture now, that the more promising option (at least to me), is to take over (back?) the Democratic Party a la what the nutters have done with the Republican Party. I would think that option would also have the possibility of prompting a split in the party, and possibly the creation of a new party that way; that way, there's a better possibility of it being more in the public eye, garnering more funds and publicity by the news media.
On a somewhat "older" topic... the Supremes' ruling on corporations being "persons"... you mentioned in your post that the only way you see of getting around this ruling is a Constitutional Amendment. I agree. But what if instead of just limiting corporations in the amendment, we define an what a "person" is? If, for example, the amendment read: For the purposes of this Constitution, a person/citizen of the US is defined as an individual who belongs to the species homo sapien. (or something like that in legalese) That way, there are a number of things taken care of in one fail swoop. Takes care of any individual (not a group) who is a citizen (such as women, gays, transgenders, and other minorities not currently protected explicitly by the Constitution) as well as establishes a rule that when talking about a citizen, we're talking about a singular person. I'm sure there are other countries who have laws similar to this that we could... um... borrow from. Anyway, I'm interested in hearing the pros and cons of something like this...
posted by Kyre : 1:34 AM
Oh, keeee-rist, Krye. You miss the fucking point.
Thanks, Joseph. The Turd Party cult is getting on my last nerve. Nader failed, Obamacrats won...now which do you Turdists think is more viable? Turd parties or reclaiming an existing party?
posted by Zee : 2:17 AM
Joe, it is inescapable. Cleaning out the democratic party requires protest votes. Rather than give those protest votes to the do nothing republican party, I would rather the protest votes go to a third party candidate who in theory will be less beholden to EITHER the republicans or the democrats.
It is the age of the internet, so anything tried before is new again.
If Reid and Pelosi go, and some third party candidates win as well, the democrats can look over at the third party winners and be constantly reminded that they, the democrats blew it by back stabbing their most popular 2008 candidate, Hillary Clinton, so they could be "hooked on a feeling" instead.
The republicans will feel the sting equally when they realize they did not even get the rebound vote from an unhappy country.
I believe Hillary Clinton is less about being either a democrat or a republican, and more about coming up with intelligent ideas and solutions that revolve around the american people, something that George Bush and Barack Obama seem woefully inept at comprehending.
Yes, but they had billions of dollars in funding from right-wing anti-tax multi-billionaire families, as has been documented by Eric Alterman and David Brock.
I believe you're a contrarian so my apologies for agreeing with you but rest assured the majority are currently too fearful or inactive to precipitate coordinated change to their party so you too will have lots of work going forward.
posted by arbusto205 : 3:21 AM
I think it depends on what you're looking for a third party to do. If you mean win, then yes that's probably not going to happen (unless outside forces split one of the major parties ala the Whigs). However, third parties can play a big role in shaping the direction of the big two. George Wallace had an impact on the GOP as they moved to pick up his votes and bring them into the conservative movement. The socialists, communists, and populists affected the Democratic Party platform and the New Deal as Democrats moved to pick up those voters.
Third parties don't have to be a "viable" alternative in the sense of winning the presidency. They can affect the directions of the parties simply by being a threat for enough voters to possibly swing elections and by building farm teams and organizations for more liberal candidates at the local level.
Greens and third party advocates on the left are the liberal Democrat's friend, IMO. Because there are lots of ways to pressure and change political parties. The biggest social movements have not come from inside any party (Civil Rights, Suffrage, Abolition), but have pressured the parties.
Right now there are simply not enough outside forces to pressure either party to move left. That has got to change or else the outside forces - corporations - moving them right will continue winning.
If O wants non-partisanship, this should accomplish the goal. It is not often Alex Jones agrees with Krugman, as one of these things is not like the other, but always guaranteed entertainment results. I look forward to you analysis.
posted by arbusto205 : 3:45 AM
Hi, Joe. Thanks for the link.
I'm not optimistic about a third party's near-term chances, nor am I a shill for the Green Party.
I'm not optimistic about the chances for the Democratic Party to be better than rancid red wine in hopey blue bottles, nor am I (any longer) a (voluntary) shill for them.
I'm simply not optimistic.
But it's plain as day that the Democratic Party is fully convinced that it can and should flagrantly disregard its base.
The Republicans changed (not for the better, of course, but for the more successful in terms of getting votes and wielding power) in the face of electoral failure.
Whether a better, worse, merely different, or completely unchanged Democratic Party rises from the ashes, the first step is to go Lysistrata on a party that nominally owns the progressive mantle but which outright despises liberals and liberal policy.
Going third-party, doing write-ins, etc., helps create the vacuum in which change will likely come. Waiting for the Democrats to give a fuck about their base is a proven loser in its own right. Make them do it, or give 'em up for good. Plugging efforts into legitimizing a liberal third party moves things in the right (i.e., left) direction, either way.
The GOP boogeyman doesn't cut it anymore, when the Democrats -- as they have -- perfect their Reagan impersonation well enough to get the lead in "Rap Master Ronnie." That's an old movie you're playing. Nader may have been wrong in 2000 (I think he was), but he's 20/20 now. Maybe he's a time traveler, or maybe I'm wrong about 2000. But today the Democratic Party stands for nothing beyond Republican policy with sprinkling of good intentions.
If they wanted my vote, they'd act like I wasn't a dirty hippie piece of shit, a "liberal bleeding heart" for demanding policies that aren't a Bill Kristol wet dream.
Call me a "Naderite" if you will. In 2000, I would have been scandalized by such a label. At this point, it's a badge of honor.
But, loyal trooper that I am, I'll throw my lifetime party a bone. Here's a new slogan they can use: "The Democratic Party: proving Nader right since (at least) 2006!"
I think Joseph is mistaking a creative ferment for a concrete political strategy. Violet, for example, advocates the simultaneous creation of new structures, and the infiltration of existing ones.
It's true that IN GENERAL, the Versailles talking point that third parties always fail has a certain truth. However, parties do not have infinite life spans. If they did, there would still be a Federalist Party. And at times of great ferment, third parties come into being and exert great influence. The Republican Party in the 1850s, or the Populist Party in the Gilded Age, for example.
What is clear to me is that both legacy parties, as presently constituted, deserve to die (and are indeed rotting inwardly). We should hasten their demise by any means possible.
* * *
Personally, I think the "turd party" rhetoric, as well as the Nader hate, and the accusations of ratfucking, are beyond absurd, and say a good deal more about the people hurling them then they do about the questions a hand. I mean, really. Many of us fought in the trenches at Kos. A little abuse is nothing.
I will never go back to the Democrat Party as currently constituted. And I will spend my remaining (I hope) 20 years of voting in my life to doing everything I can to take back my old party.
That means I will never vote Dem again. Never. And I will never fall for the "they have no place else to go" bullshit again. Never.
I will seek out any and all ways to send my message and "hope that the dopes" in the Democratic Party get the point.
Ned Lamont is a lesson for any rebellion in the ranks of the Democrat party. He won the primary and then Lieberman, with the help of the establishment and timid voters, did an end run. You knew the Good Old Boy fix was in when he got to keep everything he had, seniority and committees. Any take over of the party will be thwarted first by the patronage votes then by the RBC. If any candidate, FDR Democrat or Third Party, makes it in spite of all that, House and Senate rules can be gamed so that person is relegated to ineffectiveness. I think the only thing that will shake up the current leaders are more Massachusetts 180's. If Nancy and whoever gets to be Senate Majority Leader, sees their power, and all those perks, slipping through their fingers they might see the light. It's time to choose the greater of two evils.
posted by Mr Mike : 7:33 AM
Well, maybe, lambert. But BDBlue's comment on the use of third parties as a way to "affect direction" and Vastleft's horrendous suggestion that the *Dems* are somehow proving Nader right is infuriating. And also completely moronic. If Nader ratfucked anyone it was the Green Party, which had a chance to become viable until he screwed them over, too...and it was *Nader* and the Naderites who affected the direction of the country all right. They put Bush in power. They paved the way for Obama. They are the ones who ruined the Dems. It's Obama and the continued rise of the right that proved the rest of us correct--- Nader was a lying tool to say there was "no difference" between the Dems and Republicans.
We should've had the Dems' back. And then maybe they wouldn't care so damned much about the moronic "independents." Really, tho, they and the Turd Party Cult aren't as much to blame as the Naderites and Obots. "Naderites/Obots: screwing inevitable and incremental progressive change since 2000." The Corporate Right Wing depends on their being predictable tools far more than they depend on the rightwingers....or at least as much, anyway.
posted by Zee : 8:16 AM
@ Carolyn makes an excellent point, and one I cant understand. We DO have that kind of money just laying around.
Seen an awards show lately?
We mint our very own zillionaires handful over fistful, by the Emmy, Oscar and Grammy. Why exactly do we let them keep all that money?
Every other country with an oligarchy has Noblesse Oblige for one reason only: well founded fear that the unwashed masses will take their pretty money away.
So?
Our Entertainment Princes and Princesses stand and fall on OUR CONSUMER DOLLARS. How about standing up on our hind legs and demanding some big time participation from them? How about reaching out and hauling some of that money back?
They live in this crumbling country too, much as they pretend to float above it on a sea of money and cover stories.
The cash is there. Oceans of it. We actually have an enormous cadre of wealthy resources who are not 100% republican roach people. So what exaxtly are we doing to forcibly rope them into the fight?
Nothing. Why?
We are just too conditioned to curtseying before celebrity. Might be a good time to think about unlearning that particular habit.
posted by Zach : 8:27 AM
Agreed. The anti-third party folks are starting to sound like the anti-Nader and anti-Dean screechers from elections long past (I won't even bring up the most recent one).
What people fail to realize is this: The Democratic Party already HAS been taken over. Only it's been taken over by corporatists and moderate Republicans who wouldn't make it in today's whacked-out lunatic GOP. It's too bad we liberals missed the boat (no dobut being outgunned by money didn't help), but there it is.
I know, I know, the GOP wins because it has such tight party discipline. Even moderate Republicans who despise the Christianists and torturers currently leading their party will still go to the polls and pull the R (although this election, the Republicans I know -- who really are moderate Repugs -- voted for Ron Paul; one wrote in Mitt Romney,hey don't ask me). These reliable GOP voters probably think they have to vote R for the same reason Democrats think we *have* to vote D, because the alternative is so terrifying.
Problem is, the Democrats have lost the ability to terrify us. They cant't scare us with SCOTUS because they keep confirming right-wing justices. They cant' scare us with abortion rights because they keep giving key positions to pro-lifers. They can't scare us with LGBT rights because, well, Donnie McClurkin, DOMA, etc etc.
I think it's time to get over the "lesser of two evils" thinking.
posted by DancingOpossum : 9:00 AM
hmm... sounding like a troll was certainly NOT what I had intended. when I have time, I'll go back and figure out what I missed during my first read. Thank you Alessandro for pointing out that I must have missed something.
posted by Kyre : 9:04 AM
Horrendous, moronic, and infuriating, eh? And that's my good side!
Our non-parliamentary system makes third (or fourth) parties impracticable. The only historical examples of third parties in the US are actually *new* parties replacing an old one, as when most Whigs split off to form the Republicans.
It's pure naivite to believe a centrist Tea Party can rise from grassroots, especially when it is an astroturfed movement created & funded by rightwing republicans.
What we need is a news network, a la Fox, to spread our talking points the same that the right does. We think these entities must be money making. The right has no such illusions. Both the New York Post and the Washington were/are(?) money losers. But why quibble about losing $20m a year when the legislation that's enacted because of your ability to convince average Americans to vote on your behalf saves/earns you and your buddies billions a year?
Liberals don't do that. we don't bother to make sure that ordinary Americans understand how our policies help them, and help the nation. We don't explain the basics over and over again. The right gets a talking point and everyone uses even if it doesn't make a lick of sense. Conservatives accept that they are too stupid to understand everything that the party brass tells them. They say it anyway, confident because someone much brighter than them told them to say it and so they think it makes them look smart. We leave the left with no such ability. So the average Democrat, stcuk in a debate with a Limbaugh supporter, has no response to the idiocy they spew.
We don't need think tanks to develop the policy as the right did. We simply need the megaphone and someone with the resources and will to lose money. Crack that nut, and our entire national discourse can and will change.
Kyre, I wrote "concern troll". There is a big difference.
Concern trolling means you have sympathy towards a cause, but "it" will never happen.
Do you see the trollishness of that position, whether intentional, or not?
Here is the saying you should consider. "PEOPLE WHO SAY IT CANNOT BE DONE SHOULD NOT GET IN THE WAY OF THOSE WHO ARE ALREADY DOING IT".
You said it could not be done and by doing that, you stand in the way of those who are already trying to make it happen.
But you are not alone, many times people concern troll without realizing it.
It will take a huge advocacy of third parties in general just to get a couple of third party politicians elected this fall, but that will send a HUGE message.
That and the ouster of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid.
The previous post quotes Roger Ebert. When I visited the site, I took special note of this passage from his review of Open Range:
One of the many ways in which the Western has become old-fashioned is that the characters have values, and act on them. Modern action movies have replaced values with team loyalty; the characters do what they do because they want to win and they want the other side to lose. The underlying text of most classic Westerns is from the Bible: "What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul?" The underlying text of most modern action movies is from Vince Lombardi: "Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing."
These words don't hold true for all westerns or all action films, but the principle seems sound.
It occurs to me -- after reading some of the comments evinced by the previous posts, after reading the comments on other web sites, and after reviewing the traumas we've experienced over the past few years -- that this culture made a huge mistake when it switched from westerns to action movies. In modern politics, as Bob Somerby notes, it's always shirts versus skins.
I don't speak purely in terms of D-versus-R. In the primaries, for the first time, we saw the "action movie" mentality applied to a primary. And we can slice the cheese even thinner: I well recall that when I wrote exposes of the "certificate of birth" nonsense, the woman who helps to run No Quarter wrote to me and told me to lay off. In essence, her message came down to this: Obama was Enemy #1 and any weapon against Enemy #1 was justified.
Shirts versus skins. And never mind the truth.
Today, Karl Rove wrote a piece in the Wall Street Journal whose message is summed up in the head and subhead:
The President's GOP Outreach Comes Too Late A photo-op is not the same as compromising on policy.
Unreal! Of course, this president has done nothing but compromise with the Republicans. He has, in many ways, been a Republican president. Rove knows that, and a lot of other people know it, but they'll never admit it, because doing so wouldn't fit the shirts/skins narrative.
The bloody battle between Obama and the GOP is really a battle between a moderate Republican somewhat to the right of Eisenhower and the ultra-right kooky radical rightists whose ideological forebears used to call Ike a commie. And yet the battle is no less bloody. Henry Kissinger once said: "Academic politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small." Today, one could say that Washington politics are so vicious precisely because the differences are so small.
Here's a question for readers. If I were to point out something worthwhile being done by the Obama administration, how many of you would conclude that I've softened? If I were to point out a worthwhile plank in the tea party platform, how may would conclude that I've softened? If I were to quote a good line from Karl Marx, how many would conclude that I must be a commie? If I were to quote a good line form Adam Smith, how many would conclude that I've turned libertarian?
Values -- or shirts-versus-skins?
Fear the kids growing up on Michael Bay. They need some John Ford.
(By the way, Open Range should be watched twice: Once, because it's a good movie. And a second time, just to study Robert Duvall's performance. That guy could sell a line even if the words were chosen by a computerized randomizer. And no jibes about Costner: His work here is terrific.)
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Never thought of it this way, but I agree...I also wonder if it takes far less courage to be a part of the team as opposed to following your own ideas of right and wrong. Standing alone for what you believe in can be lonely...takes guts when it's unpopular.
Many movies of the past few decades also feature the "Dirty Harry" anti-hero who does good by doing bad. These characters ignore civil liberties and due process to catch/kill bad guys, exemplifying the concept of "the ends justifies the means."
(Of course, being Hollywood, they never torture or kill innocent people by mistake)
How many Obama supporters believe in that concept?
I don't know who thought Obama's post-partisan schtick was ever a good idea but the GOP sure saw him as a sucker from a mile away. I cringed every time I heard that he wanted to reach across the aisle and work with the Republicans.
What he didn't understand was that the Republicans were/are angry pit bull terriers that needed to be put in their place. He desperately needs to watch the Dog whisperer sometime and open up his eyes.
After what those fools did to our country they were the last people who should ever been consulted on anything. And did they ever consult with the Dems when they were in charge? Obama is a first class knucklehead who really doesn't get it.
You never, ever compromise your position before the game even starts. If the man would ever have lived in the real world he would know these things. The worst part of the deal is that he compromised with a bunch of people with worthless ideas. Ideas that have no possibility of ever doing good for anyone. The whole situation is completely insane.
posted by gregoryp : 10:14 PM
I don't believe in absolutes. Quoting a fascist or a communist does not mean one espouses all the views of either. For example, I'm not fond of Harry Truman or Lennin, but both are quotable. "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" -- Shakespeare (Hamlet Act II). But the best quotes come from movies. The truth is: "We accept the reality of the world with which we're presented" -- The Truman Show. And unfortunately very few question and test the truth of their reality which is the sum of their beliefs handed to them by society from culture to culture.
posted by Anonymous : 10:19 PM
Interesting to encounter your blog entry today. The past two weeks I’ve been feeling increasingly disturbed by the “team”-like quality of political discourse these days. Sometimes it almost seems that for many folks, beliefs/positions are largely irrelevant – the tribe is all that matters.
(Incidentally, I’ve been planning to watch Sergio Leone’s A Fistfull of Dynamite when I get a chance – it’s the only Leone film I’ve not yet seen).
On an unrelated note – the demise of Liberal Rapture is bizarre. I’ve gone over there occasionally – John sometimes had interesting things to say. When I tried visiting the site today, my browser was redirected. Looks like someone else bought the domain name (apparently to silence the blog). http://johnwsmart.com/labels/liberal%20rapture.html
posted by G : 10:39 PM
Joe: I couldn't, couldn't agree with you more. And what I love about your blog is that you do, almost always, seek the truth - not seek to support the conventional wisdom or give over your intellect to whatever party apparatchik dogma is in vogue.
But, you see - you do fall victim to what you fault in others. You reflexively demonize people who are labeled by others without looking at their actual values or principles. The tea partiers, for example, are an amalgam of people with disparate perspectives who came together out of an outrage of the debt the government was levying in vastly increasing amounts on future generations.
You can doubt the sincerity of every single person in this movement all you want (and you are often factually inaccurate in how you have evaluated when people who are prominent in that movement began to express outrage over goverment debt), but your doing so smacks much more of the fact that you just don't like that "team" than a real evaluation of their statements and general principles.
Again - of course, there may be much to castigate amongst what tea partiers are agitating for - immigration issues come to mind. But, if you REALLY want to get past the skins vs. shirts, you need to look at the log in your own eye too.
I think both loyalty and conscience play a role in politics. Loyalty to the party makes your party strong-one just has to look at Joe Lieberman to see how damaging disloyalty can be to getting something done.
On the other hand blind loyalty can be a horrible thing-look at what the kool aide drinkers have done to the democratic party-we had a change to remake the world and they blew it.
So I don't think that there is a black and white answer to this issue-black and white answers may have worked in the early days of film but reality is more colorful.
posted by Snowflake : 8:22 AM
Thanks for your article about westerns losing their appeal because of a shift in men from keeping their values to just playing in a shirts vs skins game. I agree! Men have gotten side tracked and no longer see life in the perception of values. They seem to have gotten too superficial. I believe we have not kept our eye on the ball. We have lost focus. Life is not just a game. It is and has always been between good and evil. And if evil can get you distracted or to lessen your grip, then it begins to win. I believe America was made by people who did not stray from the values they were taught. They stayed true and got the job done. They made their dream and didn't give up, even when there were some who tried to take it away. I have written a western novel about such men. Thanks. B L Strong, author strategicpublishinggroup.com/title/TheDreamTheMan
Our representatives -- and to a great degree we as a culture -- are completely buffaloed by shamelessness. You reveal a man's corrupt, or lying, or incompetent, and what does he do? He resigns. He attempts to escape attention, often to aid in his escape of legal pursuit. Public shame has up to now been the silver bullet of American political life. But people who are willing to just do the wrong thing and wait you out, to be publicly guilty ... dammmnnnn.
We are faced with utterly shameless men. * * * I don't know what to do about this.
If I were to point out something worthwhile being done by the Obama administration, how many of you would conclude that I've softened?
I wouldn't. I've managed to give credit when credit is due, just as I've defended Sarah Palin against the misogynistic attacks while at the same time detesting her political views (much to the chagrin of my "progressive" friends).
I heartily agree with your observation that this shirts-vs-skins mentality is killing us. I've been writing about it for some time at Blue Lyon, most recently here and especially as it relates to Obama continuing Bush's assault on civil liberties. The belief that anything My Team does is fantabulous and anything The Other Team does is bad, bad, bad is just so asinine.
It's like everyone has forgotten that this is real life and not March Madness.
Thanks so much for this Joseph. I don't comment much her, but this coincides with my thinking exactly. I thought this way since at least the 2000 Presidential election. I tentatively agree with those who say we need to shake up the system, get rid of the virtually identical dominant parties and start over with real populists. I'm not sure how this should work or even if it would, but we are going nowhere but down with the way things are now.
In a review of the new Mel Gibson film Edge of Darkness, Roger Ebert makes an interesting observation:
Because much of the movie is a cranked-up thriller with chases, fights, conspiracies and all that stuff, permit me a digression on secretive, shadowy corporations. What kinds of headquarters buildings do they inhabit? I Googled. Blackwater, which supplies our mercenaries in Iraq, has a drab two-story building outside Cleveland, with eight cars parked in front. Halliburton, Dick Cheney's old company, recently moved from Houston to an anonymous skyscraper in -- Dubai, closer to its place of business.
I mention this because Northmoor -- which you will not be surprised to learn traffics in illegal, traitorous and dangerous activities -- occupies a spectacular structure atop a tall riverside hill, visible from miles around: Its tower, its modernistic design, its curious enormous gleaming globe, suggesting a planetarium. It is a building worthy of magazine covers, not least Architectural Digest.
Well, it's obvious why Evil Co. always looks more spectacular in movies than in real life: Directors like to keep things visually interesting. That's why courthouses and libraries in films are usually old and amber-lit and architecturally detailed, with lots of wood and banker's lamps and statuary and what-not, even though libraries and courtrooms rarely look that way in reality.
So here's Goldmann Sachs, 32 Old Slip, Manhattan:
Nah. Just doesn't say "evil." Paint it black.
But wait -- Goldman also has the Goldman Sachs Tower in New Jersey, 30 Hudson:
Yeah! Definitely getting there. It needs something, though. I'm thinking giant, sparking Tesla coils on top of the roof, emitting clouds of sulphur...
Here's AIG:
That's the American International Building at 70 Pine Street; the other side faces Wall Street. To me, it isn't evil. The observation deck used to be open to the public, but when AIG bought the place they made it private. Now only AIG execs can enter that deck.
This building is the tallest in the financial district. The Twin Towers used to be taller, of course. Those AIG execs on the observation deck must have had an excellent view of you-know-what, unless and until they were forced to evacuate.
What I'm looking for is an Evil Corporation housed in a building that just screams" "I'm evil! EEEEEEeeeeee-Villllllllllll.....!" Any suggestions?
(Yes, Roberta? Ah. St. Peter's. Very funny. Now go to the back of the class and ask the saints to forgive you for dissing Bramante, Bernini and Michelangelo.)
Permalink
Well if not St. Peters, how about the LDS Office Tower. http://www.flickr.com/photos/93019668@N00/2666866397
posted by Boilermaker : 8:40 AM
You can't beat Mormon Temples for epitomizing fortresses of evil, especially the monstrous one blighting the landscape on the Beltway outside D.C.
But the director has a point about actual political operations of evil. Some nondescript building outside Boston was the "headquarters" of some of the rendition operations.
posted by Zee : 8:55 AM
The Bank for International Settlements, otherwise known as "The Boot"
posted by Anonymous : 10:10 AM
At night these buildings change shape. They turn into gigantic owls.
It isn't owned by an evil corporation but an evil country: Ryugyong Hotel in beautiful downtown Pyongyang. It might have been inspired by the Ministry of Truth. A description of the latter: "It is an enormous pyramidal structure of glittering white concrete rising 300 meters into the air, containing over 3000 rooms above ground." And the hotel: "Its 105 stories rise to a height of 330 metres" "with 3,000 guest rooms"
posted by Eric : 12:04 PM
You must know or have more than one Roberta who comments here, as I don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Looks like a put a quote mark at the end of the url for the hotel picture so it comes up as a broken link.
posted by Eric : 12:54 PM
Actually, the GS tower you pictured - which is their current headquarters - is "85 Broad" not "32 Old Slip." I mention that because there is a lot of lore, not to mention word play, on the 85 Broad term. (An alumni group of GS women, for example, call themselves "85 Broads). 32 Old Slip is also a GS building, and, interestingly (or not) is over 10 stories taller than 85 Broad and a much more impressive structure, but it's where their HR folks, legal team, conference organizers (the "non-producers" live).
That said, you should really have captured a picture of their new headquarters on the West side hwy. Very, shiny and glass=fronted and quite angelic looking.
You know, the time may be coming for a readership upheaval. I've had a few. Once again, my heart isn't in my writing, and a large part of that has to do with the fact that I don't like the people I'm talking to.
Third party? No way.
GOP talking points? Not buying.
Tea partiers? All that tea seems to have stained their shirts brown.
Applauding GOP electoral successes? In the immortal words of Dana Carvey as Bush the elder: Na ga daw.
Should I retreat to the lazy man's mantra: "Both parties are the same"? No. Both parties are way too similar, that I'll grant. The bad party is bold and the not-quite-as-awful party is timid: I'll grant that too. But it remains the case that there are some Democrats (perhaps many Democrats) and no Republicans whose values reflect mine.
The GOP has its act together. No denying it. It's an act that I've opposed all my life.
I can't break bread with the delusional rabid dogs who think that Obama is a socialist. Any movement that fronts Andy Breitbart and his spooky little pals can count me as lifelong enemy.
A large part of me is so sick -- and so fearful -- about the resurgent Republican party, a party that is now proudly more fascist and more gonzo than ever before -- that I can't help but veer towards the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" POV.
On the other hand, there ain't no way I'm cozying up to the Obot creeps who sent me death threats throughout 2008. Forgiving that shit would be masochistic, and a masochist I ain't.
That said, I'm starting to get the feeling that what's coming after Obama will be so bad, so thunderously destructive to all political decency, that the day may come when even the folks over at the Confluence would be willing to sacrifice their first-born offspring to Bael in order to relive the halcyon (in retrospect) days of 2009.
I mean, for chrissakes, did you ever think that "socialism" would be a political issue in this day and age?
Sorry, folks, but there are times when you really must choose the lesser of two evils. If Hitler invades Russia then we must support Stalin, despite the fact that Stalin is a detestable murderous psychotic jerk.
Did I or did I not call the shot in December of 2008?
I maintain that the day will come, and will come soon, when Democrats will regret dissing the Clinton wing of the party. I predict that Barack Obama will one day be seen as the worst thing ever to happen to the Democratic party.
We are up against it, no doubt. For the time being, however, returning some balance to the government is my priority. Having Dems dominate under BOfus/Reid/ Pelosi is really bad news.
I did mine also, and voted for Hillary six four times. Still didn't win. C'est la..
posted by Alee : 7:18 PM
I'm with myiq2xu, it is going to get worse before it gets better. And I don't know what to do about it.
I'm not a Republican, and in fact I disagree with everything they stand for. I'm from Nevada and I know Harry's going down in November and I'm depressed as hell that one of the Republicans now running will be replacing him. Not an original thought between them. I thought of registering R just so I could vote in the primary, but there isn't enough soap and hot water to get that stench off me.
But I also feel so disconnected from the Democratic Party that I despair daily. Really I do. I take no pleasure in the fact that they are probably going to lose their majority in Congress in 2010. Damn, I was a 50-state strategy field organizer, for crying out loud. But what do we do when the Democratic Party has so thoroughly sold us down the river?
Worse, even if I wanted to defend them, they aren't giving me any material. Gawd, it was hard enough when I was working as a field organizer, but back then the Dems were in the minority. Everything we did was to get them the much vaunted majority. We did it. And all through the times we worked for them, we choked back our frustration when Dems didn't stand up for Democratic values and rolled over for the Republicans. Still we soldiered on and they got all three brass rings. And what did they do with it? Rolled over, just like they did when they were in the minority.
I wanted so desperately to be wrong about Obama. I so wanted the Dems to run with the mandate they'd been given. I wanted them to have a plan and a message to back it up. I get no pleasure in what is happening to the Dems at all.
But it doesn't help to say to the coworker, "If you think this is bad, just wait until the Republicans are back in charge."
Because from where I sit, it doesn't look like they ever weren't in charge.
I am hoping that the Dems will have learned a little more about how to play the "bipartisan" game by the time the Repugs take over. That is all that will save us. Obstruct! Don't let any crazy shit through.
I doubt it though. They get so damned upset when neocons call them names. They must prove they want to be friends. Besides, republicans do not have any problem shoving crap through without a supermajority.
I've been a liberal all my life, and I truly detest everything Republicans stand for. And that includes two of my brothers. But, I am sick to death of these sissies we elect to serve as Democrats. They are destroying the aprty and the country. Cannot blame the republicans this time. If Democrats cared, they could do anything last year. They wasted the whole year sucking tp to a bunch of creeps.
I changed my affiliation from Democrat to independent after the primary in 2008, and for the first time in my life I voted for a Republican. I still feel dirty. But, I really could not vote for Obama. I am still angry at having my party stolen.
I am ready for a third party, because no way can I join the republicans, and while I agree there are good democrats left out there. They are getting fewer, and even those I hold in high regard have been pretty disappointing lately.
apishapa
posted by Anonymous : 8:05 PM
I agree that both parties are not the same but their "results" are identical: corporate return.
Do I want to be bullied or do I want to be ignored?
Both parties are giving nothing but poverty to the people. The question is, how do I want it served.
Sorry, not good enough for me. I'm still fool enough to think this is America and it isn't supposed to be this way.
posted by Sophie : 8:16 PM
When G.W. was at his zenith of power, I dreamed and prayed that the results of his policies were made evident while he was still president. When it was clear that the economy would tank badly, I knew the time was ripe to correct all wrongs. 2008 destroyed all my hopes when the Democratic leadership shoved Obama to run against McCain. I will never forgive the party that destroyed the best chance to correct policies going back to the Reagan years. I will vote for Democrats in local elections, but I will not send a Democrat to Washington. Obama is the face of what is wrong with the Democrats in Washington, but except for a few, like Boxer, they are all rotten. If I have to vote for a Republican in November to get rid of that clique, I will do it.
posted by Anonymous : 8:29 PM
I proudly cast my vote for McCain/Palin for President. I thought they were the most liberal candidates running for the job. Now, I shudder at the thought of the Republicans regaining the House and/or the Senate. They had their shot and more than did their part to destroy our country.
Obama isn't on the right side of the issues and if you couple him with a Republican Congress I am going to be petrified with what they will do. Throw in a rogue and radical Supreme Court and we've got the potential to lose everything. Civil liberties, Social Security, all social safety nets, even more of our jobs, medicare, etc. We are just not moving in the right direction.
Republicans are not interested in governing. Never have been and never will be. All they are interested in is power and money. That is it. Unfortunately, Obama looks to be exactly the same. I don't see him as running any kind of interference against a Republican Congress. I am interested in who the Republicans are going to run for Pres next time. There is always the hope that they'll run somebody really great and the Dems will retain both houses. We'll see but I am not optimistic.
posted by gregoryp : 8:53 PM
I've only voted Democratic. I wonder if a Ron Paul-like figure who isn't racist and whatever else he is can join all the Independents and disaffected Democrats together and bring us to the polls by 2010 or 2012. It's the only hope right now unless we can change Obama's course pronto.
posted by Anonymous : 9:13 PM
We get the government we deserve. If you have a skill that you can use overseas it's time to bail on the Big PX. You know the repubs will turn it into Jesusland or something like that. The scandal? The repubs will turn Tony Rezko or Rod Blagojevich.
The last two posts have left me more depressed than ever. The thought of the GOP advancing once again is atrocious.
And this time they will be more heavily laden with the Fundamentalists from C Street who will more than likely hold key positions throughout the administration.
They are getting closer to what their design of over 30 years ago had promised. As close to a theocracy as possible. Scary.
posted by Anonymous : 9:39 PM
We needed a superlative leader; no such luck. The democrats have squandered their opportunity and they deserve to be voted out. All the same, I'm kind of amazed at the readiness of voters to hand the reins back to the GOP after only a year.
I was either depressed or enraged for Bush's entire tenure so I know what my future is. I guess it'll be happening even sooner than I expected.
posted by h-town dem : 9:54 PM
Wasn't Ron Paul against the bankers and war and for the Constitution and civil liberties? Anyway, someone who can join Democrats and Independents.
posted by Anonymous : 10:16 PM
Hear! Hear! I'm proud that I didn't vote for McCain but I'm not sure that Obama is personally to his left. However, Obama's cabinet is better than anything McCain would have put together.
I just think we're in for a horrible time. This is a white hot class war we're in the middle of and the rich, well, they'll always be with us, y'know. Not anything we can do about that. They are going to fight tooth and nail to get as much as they can away from us. And I don't know why either. I don't know what the mental breakdown is that provokes such greed, but clearly, the mentally ill are in charge of the upper class.
A friend of mine says that the rich breed for maximum sociopathy. You can certainly see the fruits of that now.
Reading these kind of posts reminds me of just how technology truly is an integral part of our lives in this day and age, and I am 99% certain that we have passed the point of no return in our relationship with technology.
I don't mean this in a bad way, of course! Societal concerns aside... I just hope that as memory becomes less expensive, the possibility of downloading our brains onto a digital medium becomes a true reality. It's a fantasy that I daydream about almost every day.
(Posted on Nintendo DS running [url=http://knol.google.com/k/anonymous/-/9v7ff0hnkzef/1]R4i SDHC[/url] DS BB)
posted by Anonymous : 11:57 PM
SURRENDER MONKEYS
I despise this phrase as I previously lived near a cemetery with over 100,000 non-surrendered French souls. However, it seems the most appropriate description to the variety of comments I'm seeing here lately.
I don't care that you are depressed and maybe not getting enough sun-lit hours.
I don't care if you wish some imaginary 3rd party was in power or even available to vote for.
I don't care that you don't worship the chosen-one or some of his followers, duplicitous as they may be.
What I do care about is that you have the psychological stamina to withstand a little competition and psych-ops from operatives of a certain other political party who do not share the majority of your beliefs. Are you the same dabblers and naysayers that caused US to lose the election in 2000? Because while the parties might be similar, this meme is defeatist and only really empowers one side in this equation. Joseph's predictions might come true, but if the attitude doesn't change of many here, they will come true.
posted by arbusto205 : 12:27 AM
Sure our leaders suck. But so do today's progressives.
It is a chilling thought that most most of our fellow progressives honest-to-God thought Obama would be a terrific President. Commenters at HuffPo are still cheerfully prattling about what a great job Obama and the gang are doing.
I ask of thee--how on earth are we going to fix anything with progressives as dumb as this?
If I were to join the next progressive movement, I'd keep wondering if the guy next to me is the little pr*ck who called me a racist during the primary.
I hear ya Joe-- who would want to be the ringleader in this three-ring Fellini film that has become your comment section (without Ekberg nor Anouk Aimée)? SIBPATS, Turd Parties, Balls on your nose... Shit you even got people proud to have voted Palin (at least while you talked about it, you didn't do it). If I were you I would pack my bags, but what's an obsessive going to do? Walk your dog and mind your own?
The one good thing to come out of all of this is a line I just read; it said that ACORN slammed the planes into WTC7. See, that made it worth it. Almost.
And the only hope I now have for USA is for it to break apart. Like the novelist Bruce Stirling writes (not a great writer, but heck of a prognosticator) in most of his books-- amidst the rising shorelines and Cat-8 tornadoes, there's an utter breakdown of US government. The USAF holds "bake sales" on the highways which are basically shakedowns, people are outfitted in paper jumpsuits (after their homes have been ruined from climate extremes) and it's all state by state, no rules, as it has all fallen apart. And now that is the best I can hope for America. I can only hope that the whole country breaks apart and the GOP, Blue Dogs, Liberals, Fascists et al. all go away, and get replaced by State based religious swing voters, Snake handlers, Shakers, corporatists, libertarians, Christian Democrats, Shiias, Birchers, Larouchites, and anyone else who wants to enter the big top fray....
You pays your ticket, you takes your chances, n'est ce pas?
HCR is on the one yard line so Pelosi should sign it. But it's going to be very unpopular w/o a public option to non-Obama fans. I voted for Gore and hated anyone who voted for Nader. But now I understand them. Wasn't it mathematically proven it wasn't Nader's fault?It was Gore and Brazile's for distancing themselves from Clinton's economic successes and for being a boring candidate. Brazile lost two elections now for the same reason - CDS. The psyops and competition are from Democrats. Brazile and Democrats lost both elections.
posted by Anonymous : 4:59 AM
I think I have a slightly different idea of what is going on. The population hates the Republicans. Hate them. The anger is currently directed at Democrats because they have kissed the butt of bankers, big military, and ignored anyone who is struggling in this economy. Officeholders who expect to survive this election season are going to have to go populist and that includes both parties. Big business R's and D's are going to have a really bad time of it because the voters want them out. The media is clueless because they have groupthink with their owners which will continue to shrink their viewer and readership.
And just one more random thought, the parties trying to control who can run in a primary and rigging it with money for one of their toadies to win is also hitting a brick wall. Bucking either party will be seen as a good thing.
Mormaer
posted by Anonymous : 5:04 AM
and your point is?
If not a third party now, then when? And keep in mind the third party won't be a clique, but rather a motley crew of do gooders come to save the United States from itself.
I voted yesterday in the Illinois primary and although I am ANGRY at the party that I've devoted my entire adult life to, I voted Democrat anyway.
I despise the Republican Party (yes despise)and everything they stand for. Although I do not believe in the myth that is The Jesus, I despise anyone who uses it as a club to bash me upside the head with their Moral superiority, only to find out how much of a douche bag that so-called "Morality soldier" really is!
I refuse to believe that these so-called Christians have the best interest of the people in mind when too many times it is proven..as in the case of SC's Lt. Gov, that feeding the poor is wrong because they "Breed!"
I could go on and on Joe but I wont. Yes I am angry at my party. Yes I speak out against the fraud that is Obama and even though I have thought about, and even said it on many occasions, leaving my Democratic party, I have not nor will I.
How quick do we forget what the Republicans have done to our country. How quick do some forget how the 2000 election was stolen by a few men in black robes while we the people stood by and watched it happen. How quick we forget how Bush and co. lied us into a war of profit while the sheep stood by and the the corporate media band played on!
Yeah....how quick some forget!
Myiq is right. It's going to get worse before it gets better but nothing can ever make Republican bullshit taste like prime rib...NOTHING!!!!!!!!
Wow. Talk about depressing. Folks, we are better than all that. Yes, we need someone at the head to turn things around but I believe someone will rise to the occasion and become the voice of the real Democrats. I have my candidates but what I think matters not-- it's what they do that counts.
So, support the doers, not the talkers, and we may get somewhere.
For the GDS'ers among you, go over to Bob Somerby's new blog and read how the media elected George W. Bush. Google "how he got there". The question I have is that after getting Bush elected then re-elected why did they switch to Barack Obama? Did their puppet masters tell them or is their CDS that bad? OK, it is for Olbermann and Matthews.
posted by Anonymous : 7:40 AM
Good grief.
Listen to you people. You hate the other side so much you are puking in your plates. And the worst part is it doesn't matter which side you are on. And the idea of a new party makes you mess your pants.
You have been played for fools by your own party leaders for decades, and now - depending on your idiotic party affiliation - you want to blame either the Dems or the Repubs... doesn't matter which.
No damn wonder we have the government we do, loaded with sellouts controlled by foreigners. They were all voted in by idiots.
You people who voted for Mr. smooth talker will never learn. But who can blame you? McCain was even worse.
If memory serves, it was British democratic socialist Tony Benn who pointed out, correctly, that it is the job of the opposition to make one feel so hopeless that one just shrugs and gives up the fight; thus, one must not.
-> History HAS to take its course. And what if -by some magic trick- Karl Marx was black and now a prez of us - with Friedrich Engels his viz - they would still have to obey to REALITY. That is : You go to the american presidency with the shit that was left from all of the past. - And hundreds of millions of "couch-presidents" that americans seem to be. And they (M.,E.)would definetely fail in Your "critical critics view). Americans seem to wish for a re-incarnation of jesus to be prez. Which off course would be a contradiction in itself. You seemingly don`t get it, that in order to clean up ANY mess, one will get DIRTY. Worse, one wouldn`t even get there in the first place. You are romanticists. Philosophically idealists. You mostly are un-able to distinguish between a clean-LOOKING fascist and a dyrty-LOOKING Socialist. Un-able to see the forest for all of the trees. You are not living in the real world - Your ancestors -if they were not indigenous- have run away from their duty to face the reactionaries in their original home-country. Thats why. As the proletarians that 99% of you really ARE - but don't want to BE- you are traitors to Your own cause. You despise even the philosophical tools that you would need to TOUCH even to start and try to change that - least the practical ones, i.e.:organise as the class that You already ARE. Whilst your masters (1%) beeing fully conscious about theirs beeing a class HAVE done their homework. In all of the hairsplitting here I have NOT found one mentioning of the historically very rare standing of Your president recently in RADICALLY challenging a Supreme Courts decision on the Corporations. You´ve noticed the FACT. But not the Quality of it (which could have given You some criteria for getting a clue on answering the question on the socialist or not socialist quality of the man. -as just one example. Still - Yours is one of very few blogs I even dare to follow and thanks for that.<-
posted by Anonymous : 8:31 AM
There is nothing that says the current 1 & 1/8 party system (1/8 because the Democratic Party is better because it has had and has the likes of FDR, Wellstone, and Kucinich) must be preserved for all eternity. Parties have risen and fallen. If ever there was an opportunity for a new party to come together to unite the majority of the American people against the rich who constantly seek to fit us for saddles, it's now. Just as we might have been better off if the People's Party hadn't fused with the Democrats, the future might be better off if we have the courage of our convictions. But, hey, Joseph, it's your site and I'm going to read you no matter how much you convince yourself the ever rightward Democrats can be redeemed. I just think with the coming Dark Age (global warming, peak oil, way too many people, fundamentalism--it's likely to be so bad we'll characterize Morris Berman as a Pollyanna), we should roll the dice and out of a decent respect for our posterity, fight for the establishment of a party that fights for the People, not the Powers.
posted by McSquared : 8:39 AM
Voting for McCain was not worse...because then the blame would've remained where it belonged. And we'd have had gains in the future, instead of facing losses. All the Dems here talking about not voting...well then, the Trojan Ass has won. Because besides representing corporate interests and damaging the Dem brand, depressing Dem turnout is another big interest goal.
And the Ron Paulites are even worse than the vague Turd Party Cult. Ron Paul aatract independents and Dems? Because he's for the Constitution and against bankers? Uh, Rob Paul is a NUT who has been predicting the dollar's demise since the 70's. And he favors a Constitutional amendment making the fetus a person. Nice try, but no one's going to buy the nutcase Ron Paul cult, either here or at large.
And, Allesandro, what Magical "Third" Party are you talking about? Some hereto unbeknownst cult leader White Knight riding up on a stallion to save us all? Fraudbama was sold as a savior. Thanks, but no fucking thanks. Obots were the Naderites updated, and these "saviors" Nader and Zerobama were nothing but bad news.
It's a sick mentality, wanting some "savior." And a waste of a time. And a bore. The reason the Clintons and Gore were good choices was because they're policy geeks. We need people who know what the hell they're doing, not this flash and "likability" and barroom drinking buddy bullshit. And sure as HELL no messianic saviors, with a big emphasis on MESS.
posted by Zee : 8:50 AM
Arthur Silber as written extensively about the error in framing all this in terms of the "lesser of two evils".
(And called his own shot BEFORE Obama won the primary)
In short: You're wrong. The lesser of two evils is still in fact, evil.
On the flip side, if McCain had won, "liberals" would have at least been in a position to reassess and begin building the proper political framework to try and counter the past 50 years of liberal malaise. (read:actually make our case to the public in a convincing manner)
The "Sarah Palin will eat our brains" mentality is exactly WHY things are going to get worse. You all (nope, not me, voted for McKinney) picked the "lesser of two evils" without ever acknowledging that Obama is as duplicitous as ANY republican.
How much traction did any black republican EVER get telling black men to "man up" and take care of their kids? Negro Please! It took a democrat!!!!
Would a republican get very far with "D-Punjab"? (See:Macaca)
And keep in mind, Obama used that against ONE OF HIS OWN.
"Lesser of two evils"?
It's "gut check" time for liberals, and if this is the best we can come up with, then YES we are screwed.
(Maybe 2% less screwed, but I doubt the costs will be prorated.)
Brazile decided to distance Gore from Clinton as his campaign manager. She has CDS, Gore never did.
Republicans are never the answer but Democrats are more disappointing when they shoot themselves in the foot over and over. I thought Demcrats were the smart ones but they're not.
posted by Anonymous : 10:03 AM
The responses to this post have been facinating and it proves the pollsters and pundits point about American voters being "emotional voters". Meanwhile our president has been going around talking about the virtues of "bipartisanship" and the evils of "deficits" appealing to our "sense of fairplay and fiscal responsibility" fully aware of our "delicate emotional state". The highly disapponted liberals and the highly outraged rightwingers will assure that no real regulation of the banking industry or any other industry will take place and if the meager social safety programs can be dismantled or downgraded, so much the better. Voters may be "emotional" but the paymasters and politicians are very "rational".
posted by beeta : 10:52 AM
Joe, what is this about CDS (Clinton Derangment Syndrome), but liking Gore as well.
If Gore had come out for Hillary Clinton in 2008, Hillary probably wins. Again, what does this have to do with showing both parties they need to figure things out and not always rely on the same corporations to give them their marching papers?
Third Party Candidates are the ideal way to create a reason for Republicans and Democrats to stand up to the lobbyists.
I'm with willyj. I too voted Green and I really have to ask, what is the shuddering antipathy to a third party? Where does it come from, what is it based in?
Me, I'm done. Except for a tiny handful of Dems who are marginalized by their OWN party--like Kucinich--I have no use for them.
The Democratic Party is like the ex-boyfriend who steals your money, drinks himself into Bolivia (old joke), and cheats on you with your sister. But Dem voters keep going back because he's so cute and drives a way cool car and says all the right things, and because the only other guy you know is a raging psychotic kitten-killer (aka the Republicans).
It never once occurs to you to leave your apartment building and go meet somebody new.
posted by DancingOpossum : 1:03 PM
Obama has relied on the Clinton economics people (Goldman-Sachs) from his first day in office. How would things today be any different had it been Ms. Clinton who won the presidency? (Except of course they be screaming "Whitewater" & "Monica" instead of "birth certificate" & "Muslim socialist") Does anyone really think she would have gone after the Bushies? McCain's eekanomix adviser was Phil Gramm of all people - I shudder to think what things would be like today were he running things w/Caribou Barbie as the next-in-line. But then again, my preference in 2008 was Edwards... Oops.
posted by darms : 1:24 PM
I'm going to give Obama the same grade the astute political obvserver Obama Girl gave him recently: a B-. And the only thing that stops it from being a C+ is hope for the future. I'm more concerned about his final grade but he has three more years.
I don't care at all what Obama did to win the nomination. I hope that he finds the strength to be just as ruthless or whatever against the Republicans.
I never thought that Obama was a radical or a socialist. Center/left at best. Certainly no more liberal (or conservative) than Bill or Hillary Clinton.) I would like to see him more like FDR.
I argued till my teeth got black that Clinton would know what to do when the fan hit some s124. It was the same arguing I did for the case of puttin Gore in the Whitehouse. All I got was back 'She's evil', 'He's stuck-up and a smarty-pants', etc. That was from Democrats.
He didn't use that on one of his own unless that person was half white, half black african, raised by white folks who found his 'blackness' after college and also saw that that same said 'blackness' could be used to game the s123 out of whitefolks, then and now, with great effectiveness.
There can't to many out there like that mother1234er.
Two good Democrats to chose from, Clinton H R, and Gore, and Democrats made sure they that neither of them won. Republicans did what they were supposed to do. Democrats. Nope.
posted by Alee : 3:09 PM
We're stuck with the Ds -- would be better if we could launch an internal coalition of Clintonistas, progressive union types (green jobs for real)and a return to some of the values of the forgotten New Politics of the '70s -- sort of a mix of campaign reform, smart isolationism, some Yippie fire in the belly, etc. Just re=read Mailer's Superman Comes to the Supermarket (semiotics pre-Barthes) -- Mailer saw the internal contradictions of the Democrats as a great, if fatal, literary feast...
It was shove Obama down our collective throat because where else we gonna go? I been giving it some thought and if the repubs get back in and start the Jesusification of America it won't hurt me. I'm a white hetero Catholic with about 10 years left before I shuffle off this mortal coil. You 'bots hitched your wagon to a glue factory reject instead of the better qualified woman, so suffer the blo-back.
posted by Mr Mike : 8:05 PM
It's only a "third party" if there are actually two other functioning political parties. Right now, I wonder if the Dems aren't going to completely self-destruct the way the Whigs did in 1848. We've (yes, I'm still a Dem) done essentially *nothing* "Democratic" in the three years we've had control of Congress. Give us the Presidency *and* overwhelming majorities in both houses, and somehow we manage to achieve even less.
It's only a "third" party if it's not UMPTEEN thousand other lunatic fringe parties all jostling each other to claim "third" party status. Dancing Opossum, it's not a matter of going out to a bar and choosing a new charming sociopath to date. If you're not personally out BUILDING a VIABLE party with a KNOWN platform and actual candidates that ---what? --- mirror progressive values??? and are getting media attention and respect and winning multiple seats, then WHAT. THE. FUCK. are you talking about?? Some messianic savior from the clear blue???? What? ALIENS???? Go fucking shove into the Mad Tea Party table like some clueless Alice and then whine when you aren't given tea or cookies or even clean plates.
posted by Zee : 2:31 AM
darms, it is unfair to imply that Hillary Clinton would have been a Bill Clinton clone draped in Goldman Sachs investment strategies.
The very reason Hillary Clinton was outed was because she was not going to take crap from wall street.
Between the claim that Hillary Clinton would have been a clone to Barack Obama, to claims that Bill Clinton's behavior meant Hillary would not win, we have excuse makers trying to minimize Hillary Clinton's brilliance, a brilliance she works at achieving, something I'm not so sure either George Bush jr or Barack Obama know how to do.
Good lord Zee, did your Zoloft prescription run out?
The Green Party is just what you described: A viable party with a record of winning local elections across the country. It's not some savior from the blue, as you say, it's a party with a proven track record and a platform that any liberal, progressive, or Democrat should readily agree with.
What's the problem? I don't know why you're so personally agitated but if you want to return to your abusive sociopathic boyfriend, by all means do so.
posted by DancingOpossum : 8:49 AM
Alessandro, I honestly don't know what Ms. Clinton's economic policies would have been but when I watched Obama staff up with Rubin's folks, the very same people Bill Clinton relied on, let's just say some of the air escaped from my hope balloon. When Hillary seemed to have given up mid-primary, I suspected some sort of deal had been struck between the two camps whereby Obama would take the Clinton's economics people in exchange for Ms. Clinton's support. If you have facts to the contrary (i.e. she was listening to Volker, Krugman, Stiglitz) I'd like to see them.
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't a strong partisan either way and didn't engage in any candidate-bashing at the time. But Summers, Geithner, Bernanke, et al aren't any sort of "hope" or "change" WRT to Wall Street, just more of the same 'privatize the profits, socialize the losses' garbage... Working at a major investment bank should permanently bar someone from government 'service'.
posted by darms : 10:21 AM
darms, I agree..."bar someone from government service".. and not just bar them before but after serving in government. The way I see it, the biggest problem we have is the way elections are financed regardless of the party and the revolving door between government and business. But how do you make the same people that benefit from these arrangements vote to change them?
posted by beeta : 12:27 PM
beeta,
You understand how “emotional” Americans (lib and wingnut) can CONSISTENTLY be fooled by profiteering politicians on both sides whose elections are bought by foreign money influence peddlers living amongst us locally.(Good thing we have Al Franken, who is working to stop these ratweasels.)
Like the highly disgraced family of the trustee/businessman who “supported” Hillary and Blago with big campaign contributions for favors - these corporate “donors” whose money works entirely against the local interests of middle class American citizens are the FIRST order corrupters that need to be tracked and ousted from current and future Democratic campaigns if Dems want to take the party back.
Until Dems prioritize these issues – STOP OUTSOURCING JOBS AND NATIONAL HEALTH CARE NOW – they will continue to be masochistic, irrational fools while sleazy donors who pick the pockets of American taxpayers take over the party and the tea-partiers have the last laugh.
Looks like the Republicans will retake the House (Update)
At least, that's how the latest polls are looking. I don't see any way to turn this around, frankly.
Update: It's all so bloody predictable. After (or just before) the GOP achieves a majority, it'll be scandal time for the Obama administration.
What will the scandal be? Doesn't matter. You know how the Republicans are: In a world filled with real problems and real covert actions and real horrors, the right-wingers always fixate on something inane. Whitewater. Vince Foster. The Birth Certificate. You know the drill.
So the right is going to gin up some bullshit pseudoscandal that'll have just enough reality behind it to keep people intrigued. The WP and the NYT will take it seriously. The WSJ will go crazy. Limbaugh and Beck and Hannity and O'Reilly will scream about Bullshitgate 24/7.
And then will come the hearings. The GOP will be in control, so you know there will be hearings, and fishing expeditions disguised as depositions. We'll have a lot of Bullshitgate tributaries, and somewhere down one of those tributaries, someone will find something relatively minor but triable.
Bullshitgate will have strange -- yet strangely predictable -- effects on the PUMA folk. There will be a lot of people righteously pissed off by the horrors of 2008 who will cheer on the brave GOPers as they investigate every nook and cranny of Bullshitgate. And at some point, guys like me will come forward and say: "Look, I don't like Obama, but this Bullshitgate thing is, well, bullshit."
A-HA! people will say. We knew you were working for Obama all along...!
And there I'll be, defending a President I don't like against the nonsense being peddled by a bunch of other people I don't like.
Our political life has turned into Groundhog Day.
By the way: Andy Brietbart -- boy, I'm really starting to loathe this guy -- is trying to peddle some malarky about a Justice Department conspiracy againstO'Keefe and his spooky pals. That's what the right-wing ratfuckers always do -- find some way to turn it around. (That's also what the Obot ratfuckers did on NAFTA.) It'll be easier for them to do this kind of thing when they have a majority again.
This is the beginning of the end of the Obama Democrats. More and more of them are breaking off and going their own way. Calling your constituents names and following bullies is not a sound campaign strategy.
Mormaer
posted by Anonymous : 5:32 AM
Ya know, if the Repubs do this to Obama, I fear I won't be able to defend him. I won't buy inot their bullshit, but defend him? Nah.
My fear all along. The weakness of Obama pitted against the determination of the GOP to win at any cost has created this inevitable conclusion which is going to hurt more than it will help.
I am no fan of Obama but for those just looking to satisfy their displeasure of him by bringing the GOP back into power the consequences may be more than they bargained for. A repeat of the Bush years with more of less the same cast of characters and some new more rabid members is not the secret for success.
However, I hold Obama and his current slate of advisers wholly responsible for this uptick. He choose to seek an "easy path" that did not include confrontation against those who have no investment in serving the nation.
posted by Anonymous : 8:00 AM
::rolling eyes at Alessandro:: Yeah, multiple "third" party wins. You know, the Groundhogis having a tea party later with the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy. You're invited.
posted by Zee : 8:13 AM
I am a leftist, so be in the corner with right winger is a big stretch. But the 2008 stink still hurts. May be I am someone who doesn't get over things easily but the end result is that I will never forgive or forget 2008, GOP or not
posted by Anonymous : 8:23 AM
What Bob said. myiq2xu, too.
Alessandro may be wishing and hoping but at least it is hope. Give hope a chance! I like the idea of an Animal Party-- PUMAs, Groundhogs, Tea Bags. Think of the cartooning possibilities.
(Would a third party be out of the question with a former president at the helm?)
As a leftist, this has been the most painful experience in politics and it will worse for Obots judging from supporters around me. Obama has to be a plant out to destroy the Democratic Party and the country.
posted by Anonymous : 9:21 AM
Hey, look, it doesn't make a difference what party it is that's in power as much as who the people in the powerful leadership positions are and where their priorities are. There are sane Repubs. and Dems. just as there are insane Repubs. and Dems. If there are snake in the grass leaders in Congress beholden to Corps. as is the Preznit, then we're f234ed for the foreseeable future. Clinton had her faults like anyone but I just don't see her f234ing up healthcare again or letting those jackholes in Congress f234ing up healthcare again, giving all the that money to Goldmansach of my knuts (especially since they didn't give much to her), supporting warrantless spying, DADT, campaign finance reform, praising Reagan for anything, and CERTAINLY not letting the Repubs. get a chance at taking back the Congress. Saying that clears something up for me and maybe you too. Her money came from regular folks moreso than BHO's, so logically she would be beholden to those folks, right? If you wanna know what a pol is gonna do, who he's gonna support with what legislation, follow the money. Now that's gonna be even worse of a prob. Man, we are done.
posted by Alee : 9:28 AM
The first mistake in this "New Democratic Party" was in dismissing the actual Democratic supporters. They insisted they were no longer needed thus establishing groups like PUMA to evolve.
PUMA sites then became more open to GOP talking points and found in time that they were being "swallowed up" in support of anything that reinforced the opposition to Obama. Astroturfing by Tea Party financiers that were led by the likes of Dick Armey found "common cause" with the disaffected and the Right was being rewarded by many disenchanted Dems who were seeking a haven.
The Dem Leadership mistakenly declared that they "had nowhere else to go" and this arrogance led many to depart the ranks of the party.
Arrogance and dismissal led to the creation of the collapse of this house of cards and unfortunately we may be witnessing the rise of the party we sought to rid ourselves of in 2008.
In dismissing your once faithful base of support, believing that you have something better to offer, means you must deliver. They have not.
Instead, thanks to a neophyte with no firm convictions, we are faced with the rise of a party declared defunct only months ago. Not a good thing IMHO.
posted by Anonymous : 9:48 AM
The Pirate Party started by millenials already had meetups on Jan 22 and Feb 1. I really like the idea of taking our country back. AARRARRRR!
I don't think a solid win by Republicans will do anything but stymie everything. It will then become a push-pull circus. When we go from "the end justifies the means" governance to "no means at all", balance is upended and we have stalemate. America will turn into a third-world nation by default.
Abraham Lincoln was a 3rd party candidate IIRC. (I don't literally "recall"; I'm not THAT old!) I just can't wait to hear from the Obama 2012 campaign how Obama can't be re-elected because we're are all RA-CIST!!!
I am sick to my stomach. We could have accomplished so much and instead we have used our limited wealth and energy to resurrect the party that has nearly destroyed the nation. I think Democrats in Congress were in a bigger panic about the demise of the Republicans than the Republicans were. Legacy parties, indeed.
Well, on the upside, Obama will finally be forced to haul his birth certificate and tell us what hospital he was born in. Unfortunately, he will be doing this as president so the right wing presumption will be high level hanky panky.
I swear Obama is a sociopath. He has done nothing but sow division and chaos in his path.
I like the Pirate Party. That's pretty much it. You might want to introduce them to Roosevelt's Second Bill of Rights, or Economic Bill of Rights. It's what I wanted the PUMAs to structure themselves around but that plan went up in smoke.
Well, the Republicans love a good sex scandal, so I predict that the very first act of the 2011 Republican majority will be to subpoena Larry Sinclair and give him the 15 minutes of fame he always wanted.
Hell to da naw, indeed. If the repubs. open a can of Obama worms, will they be 'Monica Lewinsky' type worms or 'I lied a whole mothertruckin lot and often' worms'? Please be the latter.
posted by alee : 1:29 PM
One more comment for Zee. Why is it ok for Barack Obama to run on a "change" platform, but if a Hillary Clinton supporter "hopes" for change that does not require giving all the power back to the republicans who have done nothing to earn it, you ridicule the concept.
It is this kind of control patrol, control troll, coming from Barack Obama supporters that I will not keep silent about.
Your people can sit on the sidelines and start thinking about things that matter rather than the chatter of change.
After 35 years as a faithful Democrat , I now have no party. Both are corrupt, the Democrats are so weak and afraid of their own shadows. Not one investigation of Bush/Cheney wrong doing. I can tell you one thing for sure "I will never defend BHO ". I don't care what wild arse claim they make against him. Proud Puma.
posted by Anonymous : 4:08 PM
OT Joseph...your blogroll needs an update. Liberal Rapture has moved to a new home...
If Republicans retake the house it will certainly make it easier for Obama to privatize/feed the banksters social security. Not that I trust our so-called Democrats to preserve a shred of the safety net. Maybe the power shift was intended, a feature and not a flaw. I feel like I'm having a permanent out of body experience.
posted by Diane : 4:45 PM
These particular poll results do not indicate much of anything as to the Dems losing the House.
Why? Because when you go into the polling booth, you do not vote some generic party or the other-- you vote for one CANDIDATE or another.
It's quite possible, and happens all the time, that although a given voter may 'prefer' in some abstract sense one party over another overall, still he/she votes for a candidate in the party supposedly dispreferred.
Just like incumbents as a class. It's not inconceivable that one could argue that 'incumbents' ought to be thrown out (in general), but specifically, YOUR incumbent rep ought to be elected anyway ('cause he's doing a good job somehow despite being in that bad party).
Both of these scenarios can happen, and do.
Taking the last time the Democrats lost the House, sure, they had a generic party preference deficit, and a bad one (worse that this one). However, still it took that 2 to 3 million that Haley Barbour's RNC took back from someplace they'd already spent it, using that Hong Kong billionaire's loan guarantee, with that money put directly into the closest 10 House races, to swing over the majority to them.
That is, with the Democratic Party in worse odor then than now, it took what was effectively foreign money, and a lot of it, for the day, or else even in those dire circumstances, the Dems would have KEPT the House majority.
When Charlie Cook or one of the others who are experts not only in this generic ballot, but in the specifics of all the House races, says that the Dems will likely lose **40** seats, I'll be more convinced.
He's not there yet.
XI
posted by Anonymous : 5:02 PM
Hell to da naw, indeed. If the repubs. open a can of Obama worms, will they be 'Monica Lewinsky' type worms or 'I lied a whole mothertruckin lot and often' worms'? Please be the latter.
After Massachusetts, we know Obama and the Democratic leadership could have had anything they wanted. Public option, repeal of DADT, you name it. They just didn't care. The Democratic leadership never wanted public option. Obama and the Democratic leadership wanted Stupak-Nelson. Why aren't establishment feminists (NOW excluded) talking about that? They don't need 60 votes or even 51. They just wan the status quo. Imagine how angry House Dems or Senators like Feingold must be because Obama is losing their jobs?
posted by Anonymous : 5:17 PM
Anon, who cares whether the democrats retain control, or the republicans get it back, who cares?
I want third party intervention. Its time. Clinton/Palin 2012. My Third Party
Joseph, I know he feels passionate about it but Machi's MyThirdParty comments are devolving into spam. Please Alessandro, one pitch per Joe post. Oh, and did you support Nader too?
posted by Anonymous : 12:06 AM
Sorry, Machi-spam comment wasn't meant to be totally unattributed (problem with submitting and NoScript).
Arbusto205
posted by arbusto205 : 12:10 AM
I agree regarding the spam posts. It makes it more clear as to why the nonstop pitch for some random Turd Party if there is, in fact, an attempt to siphon people off to a named, linked Cult Party.
Oh, and Bob? I'm sure the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and Alessandro will scoot down and make room for you at the Mad Hatter Tea Party. They're serving leftover "hope."
And if you can't see why "Would a third party be out of the question with a former president at the helm?" is the most laughable statement I've ever seen...and that includes all the Obot quotes Joseph is always finding for us...then you should fit right in with a Mad Tea Party.
What former president??? Jimmy Carter????
It's even funnier than Alessandro's Hillary-Sarah fantasy ticket. They're dolls, are they, Alessandro? Hillary and Sarah are little dolls for you to play with? No? Oh....then you're a political consultant in talks with them about an actual run? Noo????!!
Thought so. Joseph, we don't need trolls feeding on people's political fantasies in order to build a cult.
Listen up, loonies...if your link or your "Turd Party" suggestion doesn't involve an existing grassroots party with actual candidates in actual races, kindly stfu already.
posted by Zee : 9:11 AM
The third party route, like a revolutionary movement, is usually only a seductive mirage.
When such movements are coming out of their cradles, they are ripe for the picking, and other hands pick up their reins.
Perot's Reform Party's devolution is one example. Kerensky vs. Lenin is another.
XI
posted by Anonymous : 11:00 AM
The Dems can go to hell. They had their chance to change things, and instead sold themselves to special interests. Obama and his no special interest advisors: bullshit. Obama and change: bullshit. Obama and open government: bullshit. Obama and Bush's unconstitutional power grabs: supported them. Obama and torture: continuing it. Dems and holding Bush people responsible for abuses: no. Fuck the Democrats, every one of them.
posted by Michael D : 8:22 PM
Fuck you, Michael. Fraudbama is a Trojan Ass, not a Dem. So, which is it. Are you a moron or a troll.
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I want to include a certain quote in a non-bloggy thing that I'm scribbling. The quote is this:
"Of all my fictional creations, Richard Nixon is the most nearly autonomous." -- Gore Vidal.
The trouble is, I'm not sure that those are the exact words. I can't recall where Vidal said it -- I think it was in a Nation essay published in the late 1980s. Maybe Esquire. The internet contains no trace of this quote, and I can't find it in the Vidal books on my shelves.
Did Vidal actually say those words, or has memory played one of its pranks? Does anyone else recall this quote? Permalink
I struck out in my limited efforts to find your answer. The closest I came is the following sentence, from a December 2008 NYRoB review by Jonathan Raban ("The Prodigious Pessimist") of "The Selected Essays of Gore Vidal". The review was reprinted at the Powell Books website:
"It wasn't until around 1970 that the Nixon administration gave him [Vidal] a target commensurate with his capacity for scorn, and the character of "Gore Vidal," possibly his best fictional creation, sprang fully to life, as Vidal took on Nixon himself and such Nixonian figures -- prize dunces all -- as Walter Annenberg, E. Howard Hunt, and Howard Hughes."
I don't think that's what you want, but as I said, it's the closest thing I could find.
The first reply had the wrong link, so I resubmitted it again with the right link. You don't have to post either this response or the first one, just the middle one if you don't mind.