Friday, March 14, 2008

The Myth (Added note)

Before we discuss the Myth, let us first remind ourselves of a few facts. In December of 2007 -- not so very long ago -- Hillary Clinton seemed inevitable. She was ahead in all the polls -- even among black people:
But Clinton has a higher approval rating among blacks nationwide than does Obama, according to a poll released a few days ago by the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies.

That suggests it's possible Obama could win in Iowa and New Hampshire only to see his bid for the Democratic presidential nomination run aground when voters go to the polls in states with sizeable black populations - such as South Carolina, Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, Michigan, Alabama and New York.
Barack Obama thus stood in a humiliating and desperate position. Despite his own heritage, he could not gain the African American vote. He had to find some way to win it, or his candidacy would end.

That's why Obama's blogostan supporters engineered the Myth.

According to the Myth, Hillary Clinton -- dependent on African American voters, hardly in need of desperate measures, well-known (and even derided) for her "play it safe" attitude -- held a meeting with her top staffers and announced:

"Friends, the time has come to initiate Operation Niggerbaiter. From now on, we are going to send out transparently obvious racist code words, in order to go for that all-important bigot vote. Bill, here are your lines....Geraldine, here are your lines..."

"But Hillary," a staffer interjected. "We don't need to do this. We're ahead. Why would you pick a time like this to do something radical?"

"Right," said another staffer. "Your husband won without making a dumb move like this, and he began in a far worse position..."

"Yeah," added still another staffer. "Bigots are never going to vote for you, anyways. You'd lose the Klan vote even if wore a white sheet. If you go down this road, you'll only piss off the black voters..."

"Enough!" said Queen Hillary the Evil. "I did not say that we were going to debate this strategy. And don't even think about telling the media about what I have said here. Remember what happened to Vince. Go; do as ordered. I have spoken!"

That's the myth.

Pretty ridiculous, isn't it? Compared to the inane scenario outlined above, I find it easier to believe that Athena popped out of the noggin of Zeus.

Nevertheless, Kos, the DUmmies, and the TPM crew actually think that the Clintons fastened upon "Operation Niggerbaiter" as a conscious strategy, and that they kept employing this strategy even after it was a proven vote-loser.

I'm not kidding. Look at this commentary from a boobish TPM writer:
I'm a white guy, but I know the politics of racial dog whistling when I see it.
No one is accusing Hillary or Bill of being racists. No one thinks they are white supremacists or harbor any racial prejudice whatsoever.

No, what they are doing is much worse. They stand accused of coldly mobilizing the racial prejudices of white voters, prejudices which they do not share, as a means of getting votes from people whose views they hold in contempt.
Riiiight. As if any candidate would initiate such tactics at a time when comfortably ahead -- in an age when even Republicans are skittish about sending out a racial dog whistle. (Name the last national Republican ad campaign with a detectable whistle in the background. You have to go all the way back to Willie Horton.)

In a saner future, we will see this myth for the inanity it is.

In the future, people will understand that Obama, not Clinton, was in a desperate situation a few months ago and thus needed to do something radical.

That's why Obama's forces deliberately fostered the legend that Hillary initiated a suicidal "court-the-racists" campaign. Moreover, we have documentary evidence -- in the form an internal memo from the Obama camp -- that this has been a conscious strategy.

You cannot understand the primary campaign without reading this important article by Sean Wilentz: "How Barack Obama played the race card and blamed Hillary Clinton."
To a large degree, the campaign's strategists turned the primary and caucus race to their advantage when they deliberately, falsely, and successfully portrayed Clinton and her campaign as unscrupulous race-baiters--a campaign-within-the-campaign in which the worked-up flap over the Somali costume photograph is but the latest episode. While promoting Obama as a "post-racial" figure, his campaign has purposefully polluted the contest with a new strain of what historically has been the most toxic poison in American politics.
The very next morning, Obama's national co-chair, Representative Jesse Jackson, Jr., a congressional supporter from Chicago, played the race card more directly by appearing on MSNBC to claim in a well-prepared statement that Clinton's emotional moment on the campaign trail was actually a measure of her deeply ingrained racism and callousness about the suffering poor. "But those tears also have to be analyzed," Jackson said, "they have to be looked at very, very carefully in light of Katrina, in light of other things that Mrs. Clinton did not cry for, particularly as we head to South Carolina where 45 percent of African-Americans will participate in the Democratic contest ... we saw tears in response to her appearance, so that her appearance brought her to tears, but not Hurricane Katrina, not other issues."
Personally, I will never forgive Jesse Jackson Jr. for that statement. I have rarely seen such flagrant and odious manipulation -- at least, not since the cancellation of the Jim and Tammy Faye show.
It has never been satisfactorily explained why the pro-Clinton camp would want to racialize the primary and caucus campaign. The argument has been made that Hillary Clinton wanted to attract whites and Hispanics in the primaries and make the case that a black candidate would be unelectable in the general election. But given the actual history of the campaign, that argument makes no sense. Until late in 2007, Hillary Clinton enjoyed the backing of a substantial majority of black voters--as much as 24 percentage points over Obama according to one poll in October--as well as strong support from Hispanics and traditional working-class white Democrats. It appeared, for a time, as if she might well be able to recreate, both in the primaries and the general election, the cross-class and cross-racial alliances that had eluded Democrats for much of the previous forty years. Playing the race card against Obama could only cost her black votes, as well as offend liberal whites who normally turn out in disproportionally large numbers for Democratic caucuses and primaries. Indeed, indulging in racial politics would be a sure-fire way for the Clinton campaign to shatter its own coalition. On the other hand, especially in South Carolina where black voters made up nearly half of the Democratic turnout, and especially following the shocking disappointment in New Hampshire, playing the race card--or, more precisely, the race-baiting card--made eminent sense for the Obama campaign.
Meanwhile, below the radar, the Obama campaign pushed the race-baiting angle hard, rehearsing and sometimes inventing instances of alleged Clintonian racial insensitivity. A memo prepared by the South Carolina campaign and circulated to supporters rehashed the King-Johnson matter, while it also spliced together statements of Bill Clinton's to make it seem as if he had given a speech that "implied Hillary Clinton is stronger than Nelson Mandela."
(Emphasis added.) The internal memo provides damning evidence that Obama forces have deliberately created the Myth.
And a few reporters, while pushing the Obama campaign's line that black voters had credible concerns about the Clintons' remarks, had begun to notice that the Obama campaign was doing its utmost to fuel the racial flames. "There's no question that there's politics here at work too," said Jonathan Martin of Politico. "It helps [Obama's] campaign to... push these issues into the fore in a place like South Carolina."
The key role was played by Jesse Jackson, Jr -- whose vile behavior almost makes me regret having voted for his father.
Jackson, once again playing the role of the Obama campaign's "race man" enforcer, posed a leading question: "Do you want to go down in history as the one to prevent a black from winning the White House?" Black congressmen were threatened to fall or line or face primary challenges. "So you wake up without the carpet under your feet. You might find some young primary challenger placing you in a difficult position," Jackson said. Yet for the Obama-inspired press corps, it was the Clintons who were playing the race card.
Disgusting. Unconscionable. Revelations like these turned this former Obama voter (and believe or not, I still don't much care for Hillary) into someone who now views that man as the worst thing ever to afflict the Democratic party.

Obama's use of The Myth is the single most reprehensible tactic any Democrat has used within this generation.

I got rid of my former co-writer, doc e., because she bought into this Myth, which the prog-blogs have pushed incessantly. (Progressive bloggers have become the new Radio Right: As Limbaugh was, Kos is.)

If you can still vote for Obama after learning about such unforgivable tactics, stock up on Benadryl or Xanax. You're going to need some help getting to sleep at night.

Added note: All the responses to this piece have so far refused to address the main question: Why would Hillary Clinton make an appeal to racism when she was ahead in the national polls, and she had the black vote, the Hispanic vote and the working class vote?

Can you really argue that she was so desperate for Obama's more affluent voters that she was willing to risk her base and erase her national lead? Can you really argue that a racist appeal would do anything but repulse affluent Democrats?

Any refusal to address the question -- any attempt to switch the subject -- constitutes intellectual cowardice. I have decided to enforce courage. All comments which do not address the above questions directly -- even comments which praise me -- will be deleted.

41 comments:

Charles D said...

It's time to get over it already. Most of us have either already voted in the Dem primaries, or will not get the chance. Obama will either win the nomination or not, hardly based on the votes of anyone still having that opportunity.

If Democrats spend all their time between now and August uncovering dirt about their prospective nominees and attacking them, the Republicans will win and the Republic as we have known it will be dead meat.

Neither one of these candidates is anything to write home about, but either we should be pressuring the super-delegates to ditch them both and nominate a winner, or we should STFU and help them beat McCain.

Right now, I think McCain has a good chance of winning over either Clinton or Obama, demonstrating once again the innate ability of the Democratic Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Why do you insist on helping McCain? Do you want 4 more years of Bushit?

Joseph Cannon said...

"Why do you insist on helping McCain? Do you want 4 more years of Bushit?"

No, I do not want that.

But you're right -- if (as seems likely) Obama wins the nomination, then posts like this one will objectively help McCain.

I do not like McCain and I will never write a post encouraging others to vote for him.

But every once in a great while, a Democratic candidate does something so vile that I must turn against him. No clothespin is strong enough to shut my nostrils and keep out the stench.

This does not happen often. LBJ was the last such candidate.

My father (who died young; his last election was 1964) could not vote for LBJ because, quote, "He killed Kennedy." I do not know why he said those words, but my father was a scientist working in defense, and thus might well have been in a position to know.

And even if my Dad was wrong about the JKF hit, the fact remains -- LBJ got a Silver Star he did not deserve, LBJ practiced vote fraud, LBJ took bribes, LBJ partnered up with con-man Billy Sol Estes, and LBJ probably ordered the murder of lawman Henry Marshall.

I'm willing to overlook a lot -- and by a lot, I mean a LOT -- for the sake of party.

But there is a line which even an old rationalizer such as myself must recognise.

LBJ crossed that line. That's why my Dad would not vote for him, even though Dad was a Kennedy liberal who utterly despised Goldwater.

Obama crossed that line when he engineered the Myth.

Frankly, I don't care what you or any of my other readers think.

As sentimental as this may sound -- I want my Dad to be proud of me. His ghost means more to me than do my readers.

gary said...

Jesse Jackson, I would imagine has endorsed every Democratic nominee over the last few decades. Should they all have disassociated themselves from him even if he is a publicity-seeking jack-ass? Why assume that Obama was behind his comments while not holding Clinton liable for Ferraro's comments. Or Cuomo's "shuck and jive comment"?

In the end, Hillary Clinton will endorse Obama.

gary said...

WASHINGTON (AP) - On this presidential rivals Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton can agree: They sometimes disagree with their trash-talking supporters and will try to cool it.

Advisers to the Democratic candidates shed some light Friday on the private chat the two candidates had Thursday on the Senate floor. The talk lasted three or four minutes in full view of reporters watching on the balcony above who could see them talking, but not hear what they said.

"They approached one another and spoke about how supporters for both campaigns have said things they reject," said Clinton spokesman Phil Singer. "They agreed that the contrasts between their respective records, qualifications and issues should be what drives this campaign, and nothing else."

Joseph Cannon said...

Of course Hillary will endorse Obama. RFK endorsed LBJ. Like you, I understand these things.

I want Obama to reject the slime tactics, and I want him to say it in public. More than that. I want him to say it in such a way that Kos STOPS and says "I was wrong."

Nothing short of that will suffice.

Anonymous said...

I couldn't agree with you more,but does this not reinforce Ferraro's statement? It would appear that she hit the nail on the head.
But I do feel that regardless of this and other valid points that you have made in recent posts, Obama is going to be our next President.
I think you give the average voter a lot more credit than he deserves when you say that the tide will turn on Obama. But I sure hope you are right.

AitchD said...

Barry published his response to your "Filth" blog over at HuffPost. Is the Wright man's burden mooted now?

Wonkette usually shows Barry with a cigarette between his lips. Has he stopped smoking yet? It's 2008, he's got young kids, he's a putative role model, plus you've banished dr elsewhere, whose opinion about Barry's smoking would be valuable.

Anonymous said...

So Hillary and her supporters can say all that shit, but Obama can't plan a response or highlight what they say in any way?

IOW, she plays the race card, but he and his campaign get blamed for pointing it out

Mathematically, she can't win. She's playing to the Superdelegates, the vast majority of whom are white.

Joseph Cannon said...

Anon, you are out of your mind. If you're not even going to read what I wrote, why do you come here?

HILLARY IS NOT PLAYING TO RACISM. IT NEVER MADE ANY SENSE FOR HER TO DO SO.

The false accusations fromt he Obama camp only caused her to lose black votes. No Democratic candidate could ever hope to prevail by appealing to racism. Not in this day and age.

Look at your illogic:

"She's playing to the Superdelegates, the vast majority of whom are white."

Riiiiight. Democratic superdelegates are KKKers at heart. That's why they became so prominent within the Democratic party.

In your fantasyland version of reality, all white people -- ESPECIALLY white liberals -- are secret cross burners.

Truth is, you don't really believe that shit. Not in your heart. But you hate Hillary so much, you are willing to twist reality and accept an absurd fantasy.

Anonymous said...

Joe,
Here is what's going through my mind at this moment.
Who do I deem worthy of my vote in 2008?
McCain: A guy I liked back in 2000. A prisoner of war, born into a military family, drank the "Kool aid" of patriotism, kept his cool when captured, came back and tried to influence the events by becoming a Senator. Had his eyes opened when the "Retards" chose Bush over him back in 2000. Got mad and decided before he dies (to make his Dad proud?) to become the POTUS however way he has to do it. Hagee..Parsly...kising Farwell's ASS or hugging GW....so be it. So we have Iraq, possible Iran.... and his ASS permanently rented to the religious right.
Clinton: A "Koolaid" drunk Midwestern "Values" believer who had her eyes opened to Liberalism in college. Got herself tangled up with Bill, who erased any shadow of Idealism she may have harbored. Demanded that HE prostitute himself to get her elected to the highest office in return for all the prostitutes he brought into her home. SO we got ourselves a woman hell bent on winning regardless of how it effects anyone but her.
Obama: A black Man, with a white mother and an African father who didn't care to stick around. Grew up with mostly "White, Christian" values. Understood and Identified with Black men even though his experience didn't even extend to his generation. Married a woman whose experience was typical of Black America. Went to a church that was the epitome of the black experience ( the Reverent speaks the truth even if it is hard to hear). Got himself mixed up with politics and now has to make some very hard choices. If he wins, who knows what we have..... a "dreaded Prog" or a "coolheaded" liberal .... an empty suite...or even an angry black man.
Well Joe, I like an honest Man/Woman, but since I can not be sure which one of these three are trustworthy, I will pick the one with the honest "Preacher".

Anonymous said...

BTW
My bags are packed and I am ready to be thrown out on my ass.
(that's the line I use on my husband when I have to be truthful).

Anonymous said...

It is interesting how we all look at the same set of facts and 99% of us conclude that the Hillary crew - with their release of the Obama Kenya photo, the Jesse Jaskcon also won S. Carolina, and the utter arrogance of the person in clear second place (Obama has 130 more delegates, 500,000 more votes, and 28 states won vs. 14) to offer the black fellow the second place spot - is contemptable, ruthless and would do anything to win. Yet you some how see Obama as being at fault and Hillary the victim. While most might conclude you arer just delusional or stupid, I see you have powers of observation that go beyond what the rest of us have. It most hurt to be you, what with so much observations of the unseen. I pity you.

Anonymous said...

Hey, Beeta, I'm drivin' the bus, so hop on. It's getting a little full though, so make it snappy. A lot of us eager to split this weird joint.

But before I go, I just have to say I've rarely run across such utter, paranoid, unbased NONSENSE on a liberal blog, let alone this one.

You're denying the Hillary myth at the same time you manufacture the same myth about Obama. And you're doing this with the hellfire and brimstone damnation that would make Wright quiver.

You've become a flaming hypocrite, and in the process you can't even get the facts straight anymore. It's not Steve Wilentz, Joe, but SEAN Wilentz. And anyone who knows anything about the Hillary campaign knows he is a long time fan of hers, and everyone knows it.
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2007/11/16/making-the-case-for-hillary-clinton-by-sean-wilentz.aspx

You need to get a grip, my man. You have completely lost every ounce of journalistic integrity and objectivity you ever had. It's dangerous.

And don't scold me for being anonymous. Who would want to knowingly subject themselves to your attacks?

Charles D said...

It's really difficult to name a political candidate who hasn't tried to establish a story (a myth if you like) about why he/she is a great candidate and/or why the opponent is not. That's politics - not ideal, just down in the dirt everyday politics - a game both Clinton and Obama are skilled at playing.

When you get into a national campaign with a huge staff of people, many of whom have their own axes to grind, some of those people will put their feet in their mouth and say things that are decidedly unhelpful. On this score, the Clinton campaign has been just as troublesome as the Obama campaign.

All of us who read this blog regularly realize that you "don't care what you or any of my other readers think.", but most of us keep coming back because we have found information here that we find nowhere else, and for that we are willing to put up with your rants now and then.

I think both Clinton and Obama are fully capable of losing to McCain, and at this juncture it seems likely that whichever one gets the nod will manage to lose in November. If you think Obama is vile, a cursory glance at the record will prove that McCain is more vile. You could do your readers (I know, you don't care about us) a great service by uncovering the filthy, vile actions and statements by the Rethuglican nominee.

It's too late to take sides in the Clinton/Obama feud. One will win and whichever it is will be a cutthroat campaigner under-qualified and unsuited to be President. But neither will be as devastating to this nation as another 4 years of Bush-Cheney-McCain neocon insanity.

Joseph Cannon said...

Hey guys...did you notice something?

Re-read your own comments. Look at how assiduously you avoid all the issues.

For example, did a single one of you muster up the courage to address the main point that Hillary had nothing to gain from an appeal to racism?

She had the black vote. She, not Obama, had the working class vote.

She was ahead.

She was following the playbook of her husband, who did not resort to such tactics in 1992.

Do you seriously ask me (as one commenter did) to accept the ludicrous view that the way to appeal to Democratic superdelegates is to appeal to racism?

None of you have addressed any of the FACTS in "the Myth."

Like 2000-2006 era Republicans, you resort to the most swinish tactics in rhetoric: Changing the subject, ad hominem, tu quoque -- anything to avoid confessing that the facts simply are not on your side.

Well, I'm not allowing you to engage in that intellectual cowardice any further.

No further comments will be allowed to stay in this thread unless you try to mount an actual counterargument.

I want to see you cowards try to argue in favor of the ludicrous proposition that Hillary consciously resorted to racism as a strategy. I want to see you argue that she had something gain from that tactic, given her position.

I don't care if you make a stupid argument or a wrongheaded argument. I just want you to TRY. Show a little courage.

I will delete ALL letters that do not make an actual argument against what I have said. I will even delete any comments that praise me. On the other hand, if you do make an attempt to address the gist of my argument, then you can say whatever you like about me.

Stop being such fucking COWARDS. Address the issue: Why on would Hillary -- derided as an overly-careful candidate -- engage in a suicidal course?

(When you see deleted comments, you will know that my lovely readers decided to try to keep playing the cowardly game of "Let's switch the subject." Ain't gonna let you do it!)

Joseph Cannon said...

At least one anonymous poster showed some balls. Let's look at what he said:

"with their release of the Obama Kenya photo, the Jesse Jaskcon also won S. Carolina, and the utter arrogance of the person in clear second place"

Clinton's crew did not release the Kenya photo. The Clinton campaign was quick to point out that there were photos of Hillary in native Middle Eastern dress.

Why are you lying?

There was nothing racist about what Bill Clinton said after South Carolina. The mainstream press did not report what he actually said, and the prog-blogs further distorted it. Bill CLinton is reponsible only for his actual words, which were, quote, "He's run a great campaign EVERYWHERE." (Vis a vis Obama.)

All of this is explained in the Wilenz article, which you did not read.

So you are a proven liar, anon.

Arrogance? That is a subjective assessment. I do not think that any candidate in either party has behaved with too much arrogance this election cycle.

And you still have not addressed the main issue. You progs have been accusing Hillary of appealing to racism since December. What did she have to gain? She had the black vote, the Hispanic vote, and the working class vote. What did she have to gain?

Show some courage. Don't duck the issue.

By the way...

"And anyone who knows anything about the Hillary campaign knows he is a long time fan of hers, and everyone knows it."

Gee...where did I hear this line of attack before...?

Oh yeah. 1998. That's what they were saying about Conason, Waas and all the others who were exposing the Starr witch hunt.

The "He's just a partisan" argument did not change the fact that Conason was right and the Republicans were liars.

I notice that you resorted to ad hominem without attacking the points in the Wilentz piece. (I apologize for getting his first name wrong. That was a typo in the heat of battle: I wrote in an office inhabited by someone named Steve, as it happens.)

And before you say it -- yep, I can do the ad hominem thing as well as any of you assholes. But I also address the issues. You fuckers don't.

You simply tirelessly repeat the same progblog lies.

gary said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Joseph Cannon said...

Sorry to do that to you Gary, and I never will again. But a promise is a promise.

Any reader who tries to mount a counterargument -- based on the facts and questions which are at issue here -- is welcome to post in this thread.

Anyone else -- even a friendly voice, such as yourself, Gary -- will be deleted.

I'm trying to prove a point. I'm trying to prove that there IS no counteargument. If there were, you people would offer one.

Anonymous said...

I'm trying to prove that there IS no counteargument

Bullshit. How do we know Gary had no argument? Are we supposed to just trust you?

Here's an answer to your question of why Hillary would risk her 'base'- racist white voters coupled with people fearful that racist white's won't vote for a black man, and you've got a number that makes it worth the risk of losing black voters. Nothing motivates racists like the threat of a black president, especially when you keep 'reminding' them of the threat.

Hillary hasn't lost poor voters or women, and Obama has not lost affluent or young voters. But the black vote split is no longer approximately 50/50, it is now around 70/30 in favor of Obama. Blacks are a minority. Losing the black vote in Pennsylvania will not hurt her. She will more than make up for it with the racist and fearful-of-racists vote.

The fact remains-Hillary, Bill, Ferraro, and others said the racist things they said This cannot be denied. They said the words. The words came out of their mouths. We heard them, read them, discussed them. The words were more than dog-whistles, they were fog-horns, signalling her target audience: "Danger of Black President Ahead! All Hands on Deck"!

Anonymous said...

Joe,
I have not defended or attacked Clinton or Obama here or elsewhere (way back when I picked Edwards, he is out, I will vote for the Dem candidate, end of the story) and I am not going to now either. However, you are calling people that will not indulge in this kind of petty tit for tat "cowards" and I find that unfair. So, to entertain you, I will offer a hypothetical.
WHY WOULD CLINTON PLAY THE RACE CARD?
-Clinton is smart and disciplined but not perfect. She has made mistakes (backing Spitzer on DL for illegals)for one. One can assume that she may have miscalculated/misread or been influenced by advisers into making wrong choices.
-Bill has stated that the way to win any election is to focus on each battle, meaning that Clinton has to knock out her primary opponents first before she can win the election. Blacks have always overwhelmingly voted Democrat, therefore in November they are expected to do the same no matter who the nominee is (short memories an all), meanwhile if she loses to Obama, game is over for her. It may be possible to alienate the white voters (with a hint of racism) from Obama by playing the race card and lowering his support (and worry about November later).
-Clinton has brought up the fact that she feels that for Dems to win it is imperative that they understand the dirty tactics of Repubs and be able to fight on the same level (dirty, underhanded, etc.).Therefore, she sees playing dirty not as a weakness, but a plus (I am a fighter and I wont be beat).
WHY WOULD OBAMA PLAY THE RACE CARD?
-He was accused of not being Black enough. I remember a discussion on Bill Moyer's Journal about Obama being the kind of Black man that does not antagonize the white man (don't have to feel guilty for racism in America). This perception might have cost him some Black votes. He had to have the Black vote in order to knock Clinton out (have you noticed that most female Black politician are backing Clinton?).
-Again Obama is as smart as Clinton and realizes that if he does not knock her out, game is over for him too. The same logic about Democratic voters applies to him in November as does Clinton (short memories, let's unite the part... it's the Repubs that we want to beat).
-If Clinton realizes that she may have to use "Rovian" tactics, it is not far fetched to assume that Obama does too. One of Rove's famous tricks has been to turn a negative into a positive (Bush is not stupid, inexperienced, he is just an ordinary Joe you may want to have a beer with). If Obama can turn "Race" into a positive for himself (with or without Clinton's help), he has mastered the Rovian tactic. And if he does, even Clinton has to give him a high five.

Anonymous said...

Okay, Joe, just because I like to poke the ol' honey bear every now and then . . .

In the requisite rhetorical-response format:

>Why would Hillary Clinton make an appeal to racism when she was ahead in the national polls, and she had the black vote, the Hispanic vote and the working class vote?

She wouldn't. Has anyone in the Obama campaign actually accused her of racial politicking, or merely of making racially insensitive remarks?

>Can you really argue that she was so desperate for Obama's more affluent voters that she was willing to risk her base and erase her national lead? Can you really argue that a racist appeal would do anything but repulse affluent Democrats?

No, I wouldn't make either of those arguments. As you imply, they are ridiculous.

Before the Iowa caucuses, one of the media memes was that, if Obama showed he could win white votes, he would start attracting more black votes in the states that had them. I think that, in large part, that's what happened; I think for a lot of people he came across as the legitimately more-appealing candidate.

I'll agree that the Obamachine put a lot of light on the perceived racial slights, but some of it was valid. (The LBJ/MLK remark, for example, could easily be taken to describe black people as ineffectual reformers.) The whole art of politics is devoted to convincing the populace at large to ignore some facts inconvenient to A. while embracing those inconvenient to B. Yes, it's ludicrous to call Bill Clinton racist for saying that he would prefer his wife to Nelson Mandela if he were living out Escape from New York. But isn't it also ludicrous to call Obama un-patriotic for not wearing a lapel pin? Should somebody be put to the stake for patriotism-baiting?

Even the condemning memo only seems to express a tactic of pointing out the uncomfortables that have already been said; it doesn't outline and codify an over-arching strategy for painting Hillary as a racist or for eliciting further derogative remarks.

In short, I think the race-baiting charge is as much a product of paranoid political perception as was the racism charge in the first place.

(For the record, I'm not a big Obama supporter; I'm turned off by a lot of his entourage. But I still like him more than Hillary, because I dislike a few of her surrogates as well, and she's always appeared to me as more of an analyst than an activist.)

Joseph Cannon said...

anon:

"Bullshit. How do we know Gary had no argument? Are we supposed to just trust you?"

Ask him. His address is at Covert History. He wrote what I consider a friendly comment. And I felt that I had to be as good as my word when I said that I would delete even friendly commentary if it did not address the issue.

Which, I must confess, you tried to do. Finally! I must congratulate you. You are not right, but at least you are not a coward.

(If you still do not trust me, ask yourself: Why would I delete words from Gary, with whom I on on cordial terms, while letting YOUR words stay on the site?)

Well, actually, you ARE a coward -- in that you refuse to put your name to your words, as I do. But for now I will let that pass.

So let us address what you said:

"Here's an answer to your question of why Hillary would risk her 'base'- racist white voters coupled with people fearful that racist white's won't vote for a black man, and you've got a number that makes it worth the risk of losing black voters."

Any data to back that up?

Nope. You're pulling this crap out of your ass.

"Nothing motivates racists like the threat of a black president, especially when you keep 'reminding' them of the threat."

Look at the absurdity of what you've said!

She had the black vote. She had the working class vote. She had the Hispanic vote. (Not entirely, in all three cases, obviously: But she had majorities of all three classes of voters.)

And she was ahead.

So you are saying that in order to get even FURTHER ahead, she would try the risky strategy of using racist "code words" in order to appeal to the two groups which (by your own admission) she did not have: Affluent liberals and young people.

In other words, you are calling those two groups racists!

Your very words: "Nothing motivates racists."

Are you out of your mind? Well-off, college-educated white Dems are not likely to be swayed by appeals to racism. Similarly, the young urban Dems -- the other group where she needed to make headway -- would not be attracted by such an approach.

In fact, young Dems and rich Dems would only be repulsed.

Look at how inane your argument is! You are saying that Hillary thought that she could fetch the brie-and-chablis types and the "don't-be-hatin'" kids with an appeal to their inner Archie Bunkers. In your wacky world-view, Harvard undergrads and Eminem fans all think like Bull Connor.

Nonsense.

Your "argument," if it can be called that, is akin to asking me to believe that Hillary would be stupid enough to put on a swastika armband in order to gain the Jewish vote.

You are further arguing that this suicidal gesture was worth alienating African-American voters.

If you really believe that crap, you are just plain fucking NUTS.

Brave, yes. I must confess it. But nuts. Your Hillary-hate has blinded you to the real world!

"The fact remains-Hillary, Bill, Ferraro, and others said the racist things they said This cannot be denied."

I don't like Ferraro's comment. I never liked her, period.

I think she was motivated by a factor most people have ignored: She has always admitted, with ruthless candor, that she got the VP nomination in '84 through tokenism. So I think she really believes that anyone else who breaks a barrier must be getting the same undeserved favor that she got from Mondale.

Well, I don't agree. That is to say, I agree that Ferraro probably did not deserve to be picked in 1984 -- but the circumstances surrounding her nomination do not apply to anyone running now. 1984 is not 2008. (Frankly, I think that even in 1984 we should have been well beyond tokenism.)

But Bill and Hillary did not say anything racist. You believe otherwise only because you have been reading those lie-filled prog-blogs. Kos, TPM and DU are toxic environments these days -- about as trustworthy as the Free Republic was circa 2002.

The whole point of my post is that the "racist Hillary" meme is a MYTH created by Obama's forces.

You interpret their words as racist? Well, you are also the idiot who thinks that young and affluent Democrats are all secretly dying to vote for the ghost of George Wallace.

In other words, you're a loon. You have turned into a 1998-era anti-Clintonian rightist: You are so blinded by your hate that you can no longer comprehend reality.

beeta:

I wish I could delete only half of your comment, since half of it exceeds the limit I had set. That is the half I shall address.

"-Clinton is smart and disciplined but not perfect. She has made mistakes (backing Spitzer on DL for illegals)for one. One can assume that she may have miscalculated/misread or been influenced by advisers into making wrong choices."

In other words, you are saying that a woman who -- previously -- had been derided for being too scripted, too controlled, too careful, did something suicidal out of sheer stupidity?

Nahh.

The evidence indicates that the whole "Hillary the racebaiter" myth is just that -- a myth created by Obama forces. Did you even read the quoted parts of my post? Did you look at the memo from Camp Obama? Did you follow the scurrilous "race enforcer" actions of Jesse Jackson Jr.?

"Blacks have always overwhelmingly voted Democrat, therefore in November they are expected to do the same no matter who the nominee is (short memories an all), meanwhile if she loses to Obama, game is over for her. It may be possible to alienate the white voters (with a hint of racism) from Obama by playing the race card and lowering his support (and worry about November later)."

Uh huh. Uh huh.

Notice how you still refuse to address the issue?

I will repeat it yet again, nice and loud so you cannot miss it. This time, I demand that you address the damned points.

HILLARY HAD THE BLACK VOTE.

SHE HAD THE WORKING CLASS VOTE.

SHE HAD THE HISPANIC VOTE.

SHE WAS AHEAD.

THE ONLY VOTERS SHE DID NOT HAVE WERE THE YOUNG AND THE AFFLUENT DEMOCRATS.

What on earth leads you to believe that racism is the way to appeal to young people and to affluent liberals?

What makes you think that a candidate WHO IS AHEAD NATIONALLY would risk alienating her base in order to pursue such a suicidal, counter-intuitive course?

I may be profane and confrontational, but I do not dodge. So that's why I'm telling you: Stop dodging. Answer the question.

Joseph Cannon said...

"She wouldn't. Has anyone in the Obama campaign actually accused her of racial politicking, or merely of making racially insensitive remarks?"

Yes. Jesse Jackson Jr. and Jeremiah Wright (to name two) are, or until recently were, both in the Obama camp.

Besides, at this point only a fool would deny that Kos, Skinner and Marshall are part of the Obama campaign.

"The LBJ/MLK remark, for example, could easily be taken to describe black people as ineffectual reformers."

Bullshit. I could and would have said the same words. Like it or not -- and I am (barely) old enough to recall those days -- the entire civil rights debate was about law. Changing the law is a job for legislators and the chief executive. The prsident at that time was LBJ. I would have preferred otherwise -- LBJ was an asshole who should never have been in that office -- but that's the way it was.

"But isn't it also ludicrous to call Obama un-patriotic for not wearing a lapel pin?"

You betcha. But...did Hillary do that?

"Even the condemning memo only seems to express a tactic of pointing out the uncomfortables that have already been said; it doesn't outline and codify an over-arching strategy for painting Hillary as a racist or for eliciting further derogative remarks."

You said it yourself: The memo expresses a tactic.

Thanks for conceding my point.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Hyperman said...

Your description of the history of the campaign is a little bit "simplified". Yes it's true that the Hillary campaign was expecting to win, and that's why they didn't plan much after super Tuesday. And that's also why they are desperate since Super Tuesday. It's a bit normal that the afro-american population was supporting Clinton over Obama in 2007, they didn't knew him compared to Clinton, she was the primo "brand".

When I read the "smoking gun" memo from a regional campaign HQ of Obama's campaign, apart from the Mandela / Clinton thing, they are not inventing events. It's not like if Shaheen never tried to equate Obama with a drug dealer from the hood, or that Clinton never refered to Obama campaign as a fairy tale, etc.

And it's not the Obama camp that invented the "3 am phone call ad" or the "contrary to me and McCain, he lacks experience", etc. I can't understand how you can perceive Clinton as the poor victim in the current events.

Joseph Cannon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joseph Cannon said...

h-man, stop lying or get out.

"It's not like if Shaheen never tried to equate Obama with a drug dealer from the hood, or that Clinton never refered to Obama campaign as a fairy tale, etc."

Prove both statements with exact quotes.

Billy Shaheen did NOT equate Obama with drug dealing. He said that the Republicans might try such a trick. Exact quote:

"It'll be, 'When was the last time? Did you ever give drugs to anyone? Did you sell them to anyone?' There are so many openings for Republican dirty tricks. It's hard to overcome."

I once said much the same thing.

Billy Shaheen should not have quit. The problem with the Clintons -- the REAL problem -- is that they buckle under too rapidly to enemies who are trying to psyche them out.

Clinton did not refer to the Obama campaign as a fairy tale. That is another prog lie.

You didn't even read the piece to which I linked, did you? You'd rather believe Kos Krap -- even after the "video darkening" debacle proved what liars they are!

Well, here's the truth (from the Wilenz piece):

"The Obama campaign's "fairy tale" gambit was particularly transparent. Commenting on Obama's explanation of why he is more against the war in Iraq than Hillary Clinton, and disturbed by the news media's failure to report Obama's actual voting record on Iraq in the Senate, the former president referred to what had become the conventional wisdom as a "fairy tale" concocted by Obama and his supporters. Time to play the race-baiter card! One of Obama's most prominent backers, the mayor of Atlanta, Shirley Franklin, stretched Clinton's remarks and implied that he had called Obama's entire candidacy a fairy tale."

The actual video of CLinton's commentary is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1Ytbr-7VaE

Clinton's point is spot on, and his use of the words "fairy tale" is perfectly justified. Unless you are of the opinion that one should not call Obama on his damnable lying simply because he is black.

I bet you never saw that video, did you? I bet you never read what Clinton actually said, as opposed to the way the prog-blogs distorted it?

Stop believing Kos. Kossacks are Freepers.

And stop lying or get the hell off my site.

All that said, I must admit that the way the Obama campaign twisted Bill Clinton's words was masterful. Slimey, but masterful. That video clip should have been enough to end Obama's candidacy right then and there. But the Obama campaign turned it into a plus!

Very Rovian.

Anonymous said...

OK, this is still a hypothetical exercise on my part...
Joe says, why would Clinton antagonize the Black voters when she had them and was the front runner and had it in the bag?
As Hyperman notes, Joe skips the whole period between Iowa and now, which is the time the "race" card became an issue. So let's review that period a bit (i could go on and on, but ....)

"Inside the Clinton and Obama war rooms, they’ve spent months preparing for Super Tuesday by shaping and reshaping two candidates with similar politics — but very different worldviews."
"The tableau on Odell Clark Place in Harlem two Sunday afternoons ago looked like a scene lifted straight from a Spike Lee movie...
On the south side of the street, in front of the fabled Abyssinian Baptist Church, the Reverend Dr. Calvin O. Butts III, in a dapper gray homburg and two-tone topcoat, posed before a swarm of cameramen and beside Hillary Clinton, whose presidential bid he was endeavoring to endorse. What made this an act of some difficulty was the lusty chanting of the sign-toting crowd that had gathered across the road, undeterred by the subfreezing temperature, to offer an endorsement of its own: “O-Bam-A! O-Bam-A! O-BAM-A!”
"The day before, she had won the Nevada caucuses, giving her a second consecutive victory over Barack Obama in a state where a loss seemed imminent. But the Nevada campaign had been a surpassingly ugly affair, one that commenced with yet another Clinton backer, BET founder Robert Johnson, obliquely raising Obama’s teenage drug use..." (Racial- You bet, jails full of black men for drug related offenses) ".....continued with a Spanish-language radio ad by a pro-Obama group asserting that Clinton “does not respect our people,” and ended with accusations from both sides of voter intimidation and vote suppression....". continued with a Spanish-language radio ad by a pro-Obama group asserting that Clinton “does not respect our people,” and ended with accusations from both sides of voter intimidation and vote suppression. continued with a Spanish-language radio ad by a pro-Obama group asserting that Clinton “does not respect our people,” and ended with accusations from both sides of voter intimidation and vote suppression. The afternoon before the Nevada caucuses Bill Clinton was claiming "Today, when my daughter and I were wandering through the [Bellagio],” he said, “and all these culinary workers were mobbing us telling us they didn’t care what the union told them to do, they were gonna caucus for Hillary, there was a representative of the organization following along behind us going up to everybody who said that, saying, ‘If you’re not gonna vote for our guy, we’re gonna give you a schedule tomorrow so you can’t be there..." The chances that a union representative intent on engaging in such strong-arming would do it within earshot of Bill Clinton (or Chelsea, as he later claimed) is close to nil.
"Clinton insisted that she did not want the campaign “to be about race or gender.” But in the next breath, she assailed her rival’s operation for indulging in scurrilous racial politics repeatedly—citing the memo it sent out last year that labeled her as “Hillary Clinton (D-Punjab)”—and with impunity. When I asked Clinton if she was worried that the conduct of her own campaign might alienate black voters, she replied, “This is such a difficult election across the country, and I think we do have an obligation to try and stay above it, to try to contain the feelings. But it’s not inappropriate to say, ‘Look, there’s a lot at stake here.’ If you believe you would be the best president, that you would be the best candidate to win in November, you’re going to get out there and make your case, and you’re going to make it vigorously.”
"Vigorous would be one adjective to describe the tenor of the back-and-forth between Clinton and Obama the following night at the Democratic debate in South Carolina. Another would be vicious. Maybe it was inevitable that the campaign—this historic rumble between the first credible female and African-American aspirants to the highest office in the land—would end up here, but until quite recently, it didn’t seem that way. For one full year, we were treated instead to a mutually self-serving (or self-defeating) narrative, dominated by prettied-up personas and tissue-thin false dichotomies: change versus experience, novelty versus familiarity, idealism versus pragmatism. Presidential campaigns are always highly scripted affairs, of course. But the endless wonder of them is that eventually, invariably, the story line goes careering off the rails, veering into more visceral and personal territory—in the process revealing much about the candidates, the country, and even ourselves."
"Almost a year ago, the top strategists of the big-three Democratic candidates appeared at an event at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government. In response to a question from a student about how the Democrats could avoid being Swift-Boated in 2008, Clinton’s chief savant, Mark Penn, argued that his boss had a proven adeptness at hand-to-hand combat against “the Republican machine.” “She knows how they think, she knows how they act, she knows how to defeat them,” Penn maintained. “And I think that experience is absolutely critical to actually winning this White House.”
"Seated across from Penn, Obama’s guru, David Axelrod, mournfully shook his head. “Let me just say that I think our aspirations should be, at the end of the day, not to defeat the Republican machine but to rebuild the American community.” Soon enough, Penn, clearly annoyed by Axelrod’s piety, was contending that the records of Obama and Clinton on Iraq were essentially indistinguishable—which, in turn, brought forth a stern rebuke from Axelrod. “I really think it’s important,” he said, “if we are going to run the kind of campaign that will unify our party and move this country forward, that we do it in an honest way, and that was not an honest tactic.”
At the time, it was impossible to know that you were witnessing a crystalline preview of the campaign ahead, illuminating the thematic and substantive contrasts the candidates would draw. It also hinted unmistakably at the potential that the race could turn radioactive at the drop of a hat."
"with carving up the electorate into itty-bitty slices and famous for propounding micro-policies to satisfy their cravings and allay their anxieties. Among many in the Clinton circle, he is regarded with intense suspicion; his feuding with her communications director, Howard Wolfson, and longtime ally Harold Ickes is legendary. “A lot of Clinton people aren’t sure that Penn is really a Democrat—you know, he’s kind of a New York Sun guy,” says one of his clients. “Some of them wouldn’t piss on his head if his hair were on fire.”
"And for much of 2007, the campaign that he devised for HRC appeared to be working like a charm. Its fundamental premise was her inevitability. Its tactical aims were focused on presenting Clinton as the Democrat readiest to be president “on day one.” Its strategic goal was to neutralize the question that the campaign regarded as her Achilles’ heel: her gender. As Clinton admitted to me, “I really believed I had to prove in this race from the very beginning that a woman could be president and a woman could be commander-in-chief. I thought that was my primary mission.”
"But in the weeks before the Iowa caucuses, Clinton began to realize she’d made “a fundamental miscalculation,” she said. “I frankly made a wrong assumption about how to present myself to the country.” Thus her late-stage bid to convince the voters of Iowa that she was human after all, an effort embodied in all its absurdity and desperation by her now-infamous “likability tour”—a tour that kicked off just a matter of days after she’d first gone negative on Obama, announcing, “Now the fun part starts."
"As Clinton was stumbling in Iowa, Obama was on the rise. Far more than Penn, Axelrod, a former Chicago Tribune reporter with thinning hair and a mingy mustache, grasped that the yearning to turn the page would be the central dynamic in 2008—and that this presented an opening for as unconventional a candidate as ObamaAfter winning his stunning victory in Iowa, Obama sailed into New Hampshire with the winds of history and destiny apparently gusting at his back. For the next few days, he looked like more than a mere candidate. He looked like the leader of a movement. The soaring oratory. The thousands-strong crowds. Even the most hard-bitten reporters were agog at what was unfolding before their eyes."
"in addition to Johnson, there was Billy Shaheen, her erstwhile New Hampshire co-chairman, who suggested that Obama would have to answer whether he’d ever sold drugs, and also Bob Kerrey, who said Obama had attended a “secular madrassa”—launching racially freighted interjections"
"in Michigan, with only Clinton’s name on the ballot, 70 percent of black voters had pulled the lever for “uncommitted” instead of her. Given her and her husband’s storied bond with African-Americans, I wondered if that stung."
"Is America ready for a black president? Some voters are, some voters aren’t. But even the ones who are look at this thing and think, ‘Jesus, I don’t want to see a general election conducted on these terms. I don’t wanna see our nominee get beat up like this. If this is what it’s like when it’s just Democrats, imagine what will happen when Republicans go to work on him. Why do we want to go through that? I’ll just stick with the safe choice.’ ”

Joseph Cannon said...

beeta, don't pull this chronology horseshit with me. The Obama crowd has been crying "racist" since, like, forever. Or at least since December.

By the way, when you quote material, you may want to quote material that actually HELPS your cause...

"Clinton insisted that she did not want the campaign “to be about race or gender.” But in the next breath, she assailed her rival’s operation for indulging in scurrilous racial politics repeatedly—citing the memo it sent out last year that labeled her as “Hillary Clinton (D-Punjab)”

Thank you for bringing that up! JUST IMAGINE what flavors of shit would have hit the fan if someone in the Clinton camp had made a similar remark about Obama...

beeta, I'm still waaaaaiting. You still refuse to address the issue.

Hillary had the black vote, the working class vote, the Hispanic vote. She was ahead nationally until recently.

She did not have the affluent liberal vote or the youth vote.

Do you really believe -- in your heart of hearts -- that she honestly felt that racism was the way to score votes among the liberal young and among the brie-and-chablis crowd?

Answer that question directly. Yes or no. STOP DODGING. One more dodge out of you and you are forevermore banned from these pages.

Anonymous said...

First-As I said this is totally hypothetical on my part. I am playing your game. I do not hate Clinton (Bill or Hill) nor attacking her. If she is the nominee...so be it.
Second- I do not believe that Clintons are racist but in my heart of hearts I believe that she would use the "Race card" (not racism) if it helped her win primaries and I don't hate her for it.
Third- You say "Hillary had the black vote, the working class vote, the Hispanic vote. She was ahead nationally until recently." I agree with you. The time line was to explain what changed. And to elaborate on the reasons I listed earlier as to why she would knowingly or not use the race card.
Fourth- You say I should not have brought up "Clinton insisted that she did not want the campaign “to be about race or gender.” But in the next breath, she assailed her rival’s operation for indulging in scurrilous racial politics repeatedly—citing the memo it sent out last year that labeled her as “Hillary Clinton (D-Punjab)”. But, I did to show how both candidates have turned the table on each other more than once and flipped a negative to a positive.
Fifth-In the conclusion of my last post, I offered you a straight answer to your question.
Why would Clinton use the race card? (not with the latte crowd but with ordinary folks)
"Is America ready for a black president? Some voters are, some voters aren’t. But even the ones who are look at this thing and think, ‘Jesus, I don’t want to see a general election conducted on these terms. I don’t wanna see our nominee get beat up like this. If this is what it’s like when it’s just Democrats, imagine what will happen when Republicans go to work on him. Why do we want to go through that? I’ll just stick with the safe choice.’ ”

I am not dodging man! I answered with pure honesty. And my bags are packed.

Anonymous said...

>>She wouldn't. Has anyone in the Obama campaign actually accused her of racial politicking, or merely of making racially insensitive remarks?

>Yes. Jesse Jackson Jr. and Jeremiah Wright (to name two) are, or until recently were, both in the Obama camp.

And they directly said that she is using racism to try to win votes? Yes, the two men you've mentioned are racists in their own rights--and I'm happy to see Obama (or anyone, for that matter) dissociate himself from such influences--but that doesn't ipso facto confirm allegations of a race-baiting strategy.

>Besides, at this point only a fool would deny that Kos, Skinner and Marshall are part of the Obama campaign.

You've really fallen in love with the Rovian approach lately, haven't you? Not only are you finding as many fnords as possible to attach to Obama, you're dismissing out of hand any dissenting view.

>>The LBJ/MLK remark, for example, could easily be taken to describe black people as ineffectual reformers.

>Bullshit. I could and would have said the same words. Like it or not -- and I am (barely) old enough to recall those days -- the entire civil rights debate was about law. Changing the law is a job for legislators and the chief executive. The prsident at that time was LBJ. I would have preferred otherwise -- LBJ was an asshole who should never have been in that office -- but that's the way it was.

Joe, I don't think that's the only (or the most) reasonable interpretation of what she said, but I think it is reasonable. You (and Bill Moyers) like the idea that what she said was purely factual, and it was if you don't consider Supreme Court decisions. However, in the context of the primary campaign, why did she say it, particularly as she was talking about Obama's message of hope? Whether looking at it as a message about political-insiderism, one about race, one about experience or one about false hope, I can't see any direction it might have given her traction in. Even if it's boiled down to, "He has the power of MLK, but I'll have the power of LBJ." it simply looks like a confusingly self-important, snidely denigrative remark.

>>But isn't it also ludicrous to call Obama un-patriotic for not wearing a lapel pin?

>You betcha. But...did Hillary do that?

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I don't give a shit about the back-and-forth of it, because I don't particularly like either one of the two, but I'm very interested in the critical motivations of us poor schmucks on the outside. The very thrust of my comment was that you, Joseph Q. Cannon, have fallen into a very combative mindset. You want your gladiator to win.

Politics has an incessant stream of under-handed allegations and counter-allegations. Approaching the slanted limen of the politicker, the favorable--"Obama's trying to make Clinton look like a racist!"--become "unforgivable," while the countervailing--"[so and so] calls Obama unpatriotic for not wearing a flag pin." or "Clinton says Obama is a plagiarist."--go almost unnoticed. I think this particular "unconscionable" race-baiting charge is just the foul you want called because it hurts your candidate.

>>Even the condemning memo only seems to express a tactic of pointing out the uncomfortables that have already been said; it doesn't outline and codify an over-arching strategy for painting Hillary as a racist or for eliciting further derogative remarks.

>You said it yourself: The memo expresses a tactic.

>Thanks for conceding my point.

I conceded your point at the outset; there is no reason for Hillary to try to appeal to pointy-hat racists. However, where you see a conspiratorial strategy to create a myth of Grand Wizard Hillary, I see a minor tactic of calling her on the things she and her campaign have said that were racially insensitive. For the most part, she has tried to explain them away, and they have gone away, except in the minds of those who want to perpetuate the situation (and I don't think they're in the Obama campaign). And that's not to say the Obamachine hasn't, at times, been overly sensitive for politically calculated reasons.

I don't buy into the myth of a racist Hillary, but, at the same time, I don't buy into the myth of a race-baiting Obama, because I don't think you can characterize either campaign on the basis of a few picked-apart phrases that can be seen in different lights, and because I don't think there's enough of a pattern to make either case.

Far from being the worst thing to ever happen to the Democratic party, the worst Obama (or Clinton) can be accused of is politics as usual. (Which, of course, is hypocritical for him, but perhaps more-damningly expected of her.)

Joseph Cannon said...

The latte crowd and the younger set were the ones not on her side. So any argument that Clinton indulged in racism necessarily becomes an argument that she did so in order to attract the Eminem listeners and "New Yorker" subscribers.

And that is nonsense. You know it.

Neither Hillary nor any other modern-era candidate would ever use the "race card" to win any Democratic primary, even if that candidate secretly loathed non-whites. From a tactical perspective, such a move doesn't make an iota of sense.

And if Hillary DID do such a thing consciously, I would indeed despise her.

By the way -- I predict that McCain won't use "coded" racist language in the general against Obama. Not even when trying to pick up votes in the south.

Even if McCain were racist (he isn't), he would have nothing to gain by using racial "whistles." The racists in this country have already noticed that Obama is black, and the Republican nominee need not remind them. So why would McCain take an unnecessary political risk?

And if McCain won't go that route in order to win votes from poor whites in Alabama, then Clinton has even less reason to resort to such an absurd tactic to win over "the latte crowd."

Anonymous said...

Joe says,
"The latte crowd and the younger set were the ones not on her side. So any argument that Clinton indulged in racism necessarily becomes an argument that she did so in order to attract the Eminem listeners and "New Yorker" subscribers."
Duuuh....we all know that and none are advocating that.
There are Jewish democrats, Female democrats, Blue Collar Democrats, Liberal Democrats, Young Democrats, Latino Democrats, Black Democrats.....who have never had a "Latte" or had a bite of "Brie" and can't tell whether "Chablis" is a wine or a beer.
What all of them can understand is "Racism".
For the record, what is the percentage of Latinos in comparison with Blacks here in the US?
Are you aware that there is a very real divide between these two minorities?
If one had to choose between the Blacks and Latinos, which group has the majority?
If you could brand Obama as the Black candidate and fan the flames of divisiveness among these minorities, would you not end up with a majority (at least in some very key states)?
There are a thousand scenarios where either candidate could play the race/gender card and they would if the risks justified the gains.
WHEN THE HELL DID YOU BECOME SO IDEALIST AND THIN SKINNED?

Joseph Cannon said...

"If one had to choose between the Blacks and Latinos, which group has the majority?

"If you could brand Obama as the Black candidate and fan the flames of divisiveness among these minorities, would you not end up with a majority (at least in some very key states)?"

What idiocy. Actually, what you are displaying is worse than idiocy -- YOU are veering into genuinely racist territory.

You are saying that Latinos have a problem voting for black candidates. I say bullshit. Here in L.A., they always seemed to like Tom Bradley just fine. There are plenty of other examples one could cite.

Besides, your whole scenario falls apart when we recall -- and just HOW many times have I said this already? -- that Hillary had BOTH the black vote and the Latino vote.

So she never had a thing to gain from pitting one against the other!

Why am I so passionate about this? Because The Myth is a Big Lie, just as the Protocols of Zion was a Big Lie, just as the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a Big Lie, just as the Hillary-murdered-Vince yarn was a Big Lie, just as Al Gore was denied his chance to become our greatest president by a series of Big Lies.

Quite a few progs bought into those last two lies. The left is almost as gullible as the right.

Well, I will not tolerate your damned lying. Not one of you has made a fact-based argument. You simply keep repeating proven myths (see the "Fairy Tale" expose above).

You really think that Hillary had somethign to gain by pitting blacks against Latinos -- even though she already had BOTH? My God. How do you live with yourself?

Does your Hillary-hate really run so deep that you will accept any premise, no matter how absurd, as long as it buttresses your prejudice against her?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

I have said it before, but to set the record straight...... I DO NOT HATE HILLARY! I WILL VOTE FOR HER IN NOVEMBER IF SHE IS THE NOMINEE.
Now!
What I offer as argument is just that. You are the one who asked for plausible arguments that explain why Clinton would engage in divisive politics. I am trying to give you possible scenarios. I never claimed any of these arguments had any basis in reality. I never accused Clinton of engaging in any of these possible underhanded tactics.
You wanted arguments that had any logical basis...and I am throwing out any that can stand on merit....
You are welcome to shoot down any or all.....
BUT Joseph.....I or my arguments are not on trial.....you and your arguments are!
As I see it, you have barely one out of ten on your side. We all could be totally wacko or worse "PROGS" or even idiots or worse, high on Obama "Koolaid". However logic defies that conclusion. Take a pole of opinions offered by your long time readers, you know the ones that have proven themselves not to be wacko reactionary/troll/tranny/disguised repubs...etc. and tell me in all honesty how can you be right!

Joseph Cannon said...

I couldn't care less about any "pole."

In late 2006, a poll of my readers would have indicated that I was out of my gourd for doubting the Gospel of the Controlled Demolition. Thankfully, much of the left now realizes that the trannies are pseudoscientists and right-wing, Paul-voting kooks.

In 2007, a poll would have indicated that I had lost it because I would not buy into the then-prevalent "Nancy Pelosi = Satan" meme. (That meme seems to have died out, now that Pelosi has come out in favor of Obama.)

Later, I was told that I was silly and irrelevant because I doubted that Dennis Kucinich had mass appeal. And how many electoral votes did he win...?

Every so often the left fastens onto a groupthink fantasy. The left then proceeds to demand ideological conformity. It's an old story. Goes back to Orwell.

And when guys like me -- not on or of the right, and therefore impossible to pigeon-hole -- call the lefties on their horsecrap, the poor widdle progs lose their tempers. "Get with the program!" shout the progs -- who hypocritically fancy themselves the apostles of independent thought.

Well, screw the program. "Screw ALL programs," to paraphrase Mahler.

As a fine SF writer once told me: "When they hand you lined paper, write the other way."

Throughout the 1990s, quite a few lefties thought they would be prove their hipness by repeating their own variants of the smears published by the Scaife press. Remember that crap Alex Cockburn used to print about Mena? (I happen to know that, behind the scenes, Cockburn was repeating crap he heard from Riconosciuto, who was making it all up.) Remember Chris Hitchens before he (openly) switched sides?

Back then, I would make a few timid remarks about the allegations being unproven. And I was shouted down by all of my friends (who are no longer my friends). Whenever I'd say that the Vince Foster allegations looked bogus, the guys I hung out with would call me a "Clinton lover." And then, on cue, they would trot out the SIBPATS speech.

Years later, it finally became safe to say that they were idiots for believing that malarky.

Years from now, it will finally be safe to say that Obama and the proggers engineered The Myth.

Bottom line: I've been through this crap before. And experience has taught me to be braver than I was in the 1990s. I'm gonna speak up and do whatever I can to beat down the smear tactics presented by the Obama campaign and Kos.

And I really do not care what you think about it.

So far, I have taken on every argument without dodging, and I've beaten 'em down. I've looked up the ACTUAL quotes, not the Kossified versions. I presented the video of Clinton's "fairy tale" remarks, which the prog bloggers were afraid to do. I brought genuine expertise to the dialog about the video codecs. My piece was endorsed by someone who wrote a book about lossy codecs, incidentally. Not a single person with technical knowledge told me that I had gotten any major point wrong.

In other words, a little research and logical reasoning was all I ever needed to disprove The Myth.

So I'm feeling fine. Frankly, I haven't even felt challenged.

Anonymous said...

Re. Joseph's "Added note: All the responses to this piece have so far refused to address the main question: Why would Hillary Clinton make an appeal to racism when she was ahead in the national polls, and she had the black vote, the Hispanic vote and the working class vote?":

Here's my answer, Joseph:

Obama had won white Idaho, and he and Edwards were both trouncing McCain and the other top Republicans in the U.S. general-election poll match-ups, whereas Hillary lost to those Republicans in those match-ups, and this was why the former "sure thing" Hillary seemed no longer to be a sure thing, but to be, instead, shockingly vulnerable after Idaho. Hillary made a come-back in N.H., and now S.C. was the next big battleground. Whereas Hillary had formerly led the pre-primary polls in S.C., Obama now did, because blacks no longer felt that they'd be wasting their vote to vote for Obama; after Idaho, they saw that Obama might actually be able to win against a white Republican. Obama was thus now clearly an existential threat to Hillary's campaign, not only because of support from white Democrats, but especially because of his new-found support from black Democrats.

When Bill Clinton compared Obama's S.C. success to the decades-earlier successes of Jesse Jackson in that state, at a time when Jackson's candidacy had nearly zero support from non-white voters, Bill's not-so-subtle message was that Obama, like Jackson decades earlier, would turn out to be only "the black candidate," and that only a white Democrat would be able to beat a white Republican in the general election in November.

Bill was saying to Democrats in the upcoming states: Vote for Hillary and not Obama, because white Americans are too racist to vote for a black Democrat in a general election against a white Republican. Bill was saying that Hillary's being a female wasn't politically as bad as Obama's being a black; that Hillary still was WHITE, and that to vote for Obama in the upcoming primaries would be to vote for defeat in November, because America is still very racist, but isn't nearly as sexist as it used to be.

Bill was ignoring such facts as that Jesse Jackson had never won a political office, not even as a state senator, much less as a U.S. Senator, as Obama had done. Bill was ignoring that Obama wasn't running on "black issues" as Jackson had done in 1984 and 1988. Bill was ignoring that unlike Obama, Jackson wasn't a spellbinding orator, matching if not exceeding JFK (and often compared to him). Bill was ignoring that Hillary was the worst orator of the entire Democratic field, with the possible exception of Dennis Kucinich. Bill was ignoring the strengths of Obama and the weaknesses of Hillary, and he was also ignoring the numerous differences between today's Obama campaign and yesteryear's Jackson campaigns.

Bill didn't need to pay attention to those things, because his only real purpose in this side comment of his was to make a racist appeal -- and in this he succeeded all too well, as most people (but not you) noticed.

Joseph Cannon said...

anon -- and by the way, you are a fucking coward for being anonyous: Either sign your name or expect deletion next time -- you are SO full of shit your eardrums are ready to burst from within.

The actual text of Clinton's words do not match your prog-blog version of same. Clinton's praise of Obama was full and deep -- almost overdone, frankly. The Jackson win in 1988 just happened to be the last time when someone who wasn't the frontrunner in the national polling made a surprise victory. Are we supposed to ignore that obvious parallel simply because Jackson is black? Clinton was saying "South Carolina has a history of surprising the pollsters." He was NOT saying "Don't vote for blacks!"

And the Obamabots have been "racist-baiting" the Clintons since before the first primary. So your chronology is deliberately deceptive.

How many times must I explain? Hillary had the black vote, the Hispanic vote and the working class. She had no reason to alienate her base.

Obama appealed to the affluent liberals and to the young.

You are arguing that the Clintons sent out "racist" code words to appeal to affluent liberals and to the young. And that they gave no thought toward alienating blacks or anti-racist whites, and that they always-careful Clintons didn't care about bad press.

You know how nutty that scenario is?

Let me put it this way.

None of the Republicans ever made any sexist or racist "whistling" noises in any of their primaries, even though it became clear that the Republican nominee would probably face a woman or a black person.

Why? Because the Republicans knew better. The risk outweighed any potential gains.

So you are arguing that McCain, Huckabee, Romney and company would not use racist appeals when speaking to white conservatives in Alabama -- but the Clintons WOULD use racial appeals when talking to brie-and-chablis liberals in California.

That's what you are saying.

And I think you really believe that nonsense.

If you do, you are just plain bugfuck NUTS.

You know what this whole dialogue reminds me of? This feels like the last time I argued with a fundamentalist over Biblical inerrancy. No matter how many contradictions between the Gospels I would point out, the fundie would always sticks to his position.

Anti-Clintonism is the new American religion.

Go away, anon. Just get the fuck out of here. Never come back; never try to comment again.

I am sick of arguing with fundamentalist fanatics.

Anonymous said...

How do you make the difference between someone who prefer Obama over Clinton and an anti-Clinton Obamabot ?

Anonymous said...

Joseph dumps on anonymous comments only when they expose the irrationality of his arguments.

All other anonymous contributions are acceptable to him and elicit no rages from him.

For example, Joseph had said: "All the responses to this piece have so far refused to address the main question: Why would Hillary Clinton make an appeal to racism when she was ahead in the national polls, and she had the black vote, the Hispanic vote and the working class vote? ... All comments which do not address the above questions directly -- even comments which praise me -- will be deleted." Some anonymous person took him at his word on that, and tried seriously to answer his question, and not only did Joseph not follow through by removing all comments other than that responsive one, but he went so far as to fly into a rage and say to that anonymous person "Just get the fuck out of here. Never come back; never try to comment again."

Whew! Not a nice guy this Joseph; not a rational one, either. Perhaps every comment posted here should be anonymous.